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Grimley
01-25-2011, 04:14 PM
Got an email today from the new HHA asking for our continued support for the organization. Are they kidding? I was given a list of all the things I would get for joining. Then I got letters or emails stating that all of the magazines we were promised were no longer being sent. Another organization that can't keep its promises. Unless they cough up the rest of my mags I an definitely against anyone joining the HHA.

Darkangel
01-25-2011, 04:20 PM
Are you sure you got an email from hha? You do know there is no HHA anymore them and the iaha have merged there was an email that went out a while ago. Also the magazine issue is the fault of the magazine people they make them and send them out the associations never touch the mags contact the magazine folks and get your mags.

DA

Allen H
01-25-2011, 04:35 PM
It was from the HAA grimley,
I see both sides here, kinda crappy that Larry pulled his mag (but did say that he would talk to the new association), and Haunted attraction Mag is very slow getting issues out so a years subscription only gets you one or two issues. I just got a letter from fango saying that I needed to resume.
Selling Halloween wouldnt be a bad mag to have, or a deal wih 13th hour. But I really hope that Larry and the HAA work something out because Hauntworld mag is the most consistant producer out there for our industry right now.
I Dont know...I really wanted HHA to work, but I will sit and wait this year I think...again.
Allen H

Jolly Pumpkin
01-25-2011, 05:02 PM
You should also check out the new Fright Times Magazine. 2 issues for $20 and they actually tell you when you are getting your magazine. It's not a guessing game on when the next one will be released.

drfrightner
01-25-2011, 06:32 PM
Allan just to be clear I was informed by them they would no longer be buying the magazines. I was told do not send anymore magazines to members. I merely informed u that I would not be sending u one if u join Haa.

So I didn't do anything crappy. Lol


In fact I called Patrick koppelsky iaha prez and told him a year ago we would ship mags to iaha members same as hha and he said no thanks. So I tried to treat both the same.

Lastly I'm not joining Haa because I'm sick of giving money, time, energy and support to something that doesn't work, isn't supported doesn't help anyone and simply put is not needed or demanded by the industy. At such time the roof starts to leak we can come back to it. In the meantime.... Going to focus on making this site better.

Don't want to join something people will just end up fighting about over and over and over and over.....


Hope this clears it up

Larry

Speculo
01-25-2011, 06:55 PM
I don't really know all the details but I think I can help with some confusion here.

The HHA deal was that you got every magazine that published while your membership was valid. This was not a subscription per se, rather a mag by mag purchase. Larry came up with this idea because of the often erratic publishing schedule Haunt mags have. Thus if say Hauntworld had published 4 mags before Jan you would have gotten 4 mags. I think Frighttimes had two issues and both of those were sent. If they published one you got one, etc. Memberships run by calendar year, so you would have had to renew in Jan to get new mags anyway, even if the associations had continued.

So as of Jan 1, everyone in HHA and IAHA would have been asked to renew, but both orgainizations have disbanded. If the HAA the new orgainization does not have mags as a benifit and it matters to you then let them know. But as far as HHA goes as far as I know all Hauntworlds and Frighttimes that published up until Jan 1 were purchased and sent as promised. As far as Fangoria goes that WAS a regular subscription (and it also publishes regularly) so it should continue until it lapses a year after it began. Important to note, I think Fangoria for whatever reason only publishes 10 issues a year.

I don't have every detail these days but perhaps that explains your questions.

Thanks!

spookhaven
01-25-2011, 08:11 PM
I just got a bill from Fangoria around 160.00 a year, don't think so. I hardly opened it. Hauntworld is worth it and Haunted Attraction I got 1 in 2010 and no others but will probably renew my subscription. 13th hour, my opinion will NEVER give them money again. Was promised a magazine 2 years in a row and they never sent it but took my money.

I don't think these organizations are necessarily for magazines subscription but a great bonus and tool for us to use and appreciated by all.

Now what I think we have to weight out is it's down to one fee of 250.00 per commercial attraction with 2 members not 500.00 for two different organizations. Look at the discounts we receive at the show on top of show price. Is it worth it for 250.00? I will save that in one order with Scarefactory so I say yes.

So it's worth it just to save the money on orders, I think. I did receive an application tonight by email from HAA. I would like to see what else they are planning however.

Mike Bizub
01-25-2011, 09:13 PM
Do we know what vendors are supporting the new association and what discounts are being offered?

Grimley
01-25-2011, 09:24 PM
It all a bunch of garbage. I don't even own a haunt but I work to support the industry in any way I can. We are retail. I was told at the both that I would get the mags for one year subscription each and not till Jan 1st. As we know many times the one year subscription can span one and half years due to irregular publishing. Just don't over promise to get members.You leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth. The exact tactic they used was why subscribe to all the mags when you get them free with the membership. So yes it was bait and switch.

As for 13th hour I have had two subscriptions and have had to call to get every single issue. You would think after two years they could take a list and print some labels. They will hear from me at the show. I don't mind telling people when their service sucks. I don't expect anything different than the same treatment I give my customers. If they pay for a service or an item they should get it in a speedy fashion as advertised. If not they get a refund.

Jim Warfield
01-25-2011, 10:07 PM
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."
I change my undies everyday, yet that stain/mark always looks THE SAME!
(Smells the same too?)

drfrightner
01-25-2011, 11:54 PM
Okay I have a bit of information... the new board of HAA voted to STOP buying magazines for members. So they are no longer buying ANY magazines for members... which if you ask me was one if not the biggest bennefit. Oh well...

I don't think it matters as some have pointed out like 13 Hour I don't think they've printed a magazine since 2009 (Am I right on that one)???

Doesn't it really matter though if you need an association to buy your magazine subscriptions then you are helpless. An association shouldn't buy you a magazine an association should do something that you can't do for yourself and that is why they have all failed.

As for vendor discounts I really don't know why that drum is beat on so much because you can get CHEAPER discounts YOURSELF you just have to ask... you have to be willing to walk up to a vendor and play some hard ball. Scarefactory has all sorts of discounts, Ghost Ride has a discount sale going on right now and EVERY vendor offers discounts at the show.

I know any vendor if they have some sort of HAA discount you can just ask for it and they'll give it to you or better... I know most vendors will give discounts if you pay in advance, if you buy now, if you buy more, if you buy at the show, the list goes on and on and on.

Haunt vendors are sorta like flea market vendors... everything is negotiable. Now you go to Walmart you pay the price listed period!

When you go to IAAPA you can get prices lower same deal like a flea market... they want your business don't want you to leave the booth without an order they will deal!

YOU HAVE TO ASK!

I know one vendor who is the most notorious buyer in the biz... he crammed an order down one vendors throat 'take it or leave it' for 35% off and the vendor took it. I'm not saying all vendors will but if you don't wheel and deal expect NOTHING!

IAAPA serves a vital role to the amusement industry doing the tradeshow, education, magazines, events, and they fight the government over new policy, laws, safety this and that and everything between.

Our industry can't do those things because its already being done by everyone and their brother... I'm sorry to say that I love the guys who are trying and who have tried hard but me I've moved onto worring about my own business, my friends, and less about what the Jones are doing.

I think an association for our industry is nothing more than something to fight over... not worth the effort.

It took a lot to get this far but I'm sorry to say this is the reality!

Lastly, take your money keep it, buy your own magazines, pay for seminars, haunt tours, buy dvd's, books, spend time with a friend in the biz ask questions, whatever that in and of itself will pay you back 100000000 times more than what our industry has to offer in terms of an ogranized association that helps your business grow!!!!!


Larry

spookhaven
01-26-2011, 07:24 AM
Larry you definately have a point on the "don't ask, don't get". What is the worse they can say? No?

I did email the executive director and I got a response immediately from the President. Here is what it said:

Heather,

We have been reaching out to all the vendors that have supported both associations in the past. For the most part, they are all supporting this merger and want to continue offering the discounts to our members. Our goal is to have the list worked out by Transworld.

Regarding your involvement in committees, in the last Screamzine we invited everyone to be a part of the committee process by emailing us your information, preferred committee, and a short bio. We will forward your information to the appropriate chair person.

Thank you,

Patrick Konopelski

And my response was:

Thank you Patrick for the response. I guess since I was suppose to be on the committee for Conventions (with IAHA), I thought I would have been contacted by now about Transworld. It has been extremely frustrating to me that trying to get more involved has not been noticed by people on the board/committee's. I actually spoke to you about this last year at Transworld because I was not going to rejoin. After speaking with you, I was fairly confident things were going to change. I was involved in 1 meeting on the marketing committee prior to the season start. Other than that, I never got emailed or called except to say, "I would be contacted when meeting started". Didn't happen. Understand the merger was being discussed and worked out, but we have to be ready to get those members excited about "what's in it for me to join".

I think I speak for many on this subject; I am a much smaller haunt than many of you on this board/committee's. I think listening and learning from everyone that has already "been there, done that" can be beneficial, but sometimes the smaller haunts seem to not be heard as much. I really think you need to make sure you have a mix of people on the board/committees to properly represent this industry. I am certainly not saying it has to be me, but I think this is something that most would agree with.

I will wait until Transworld and see how this all pans out and make my decision then. Thank you for taking the time to email me a response. Much appreciated.

Heather Bilbay

Atlease Patrick is on the ball with responding. That is a plus! Good luck to this association and hopefully we will see enough benefit to join and keep it strong!

mindtumor
01-26-2011, 07:38 AM
What exactly did any of you think any of these organizations were going to be able to do for you? What exactly did you want out of all this?

spookhaven
01-26-2011, 08:00 AM
For me I expected safety awareness of our industry to be pushed, which in most cases it has. Awareness to the public that this industry is growing with the Travel Channel stuff was great. Even though it featured many of the large over the top haunts, it still helps the smaller ones be noticed. Several customers go to Field of Screams or Terror behind the Walls in PA and come to us and say wow you guys are doing things that they do, or you have a unique way of doing this or that. It's all about public awareness which is something that we need to stick together on.

The discounts are good and an absolute benefit and the magazines were nice because we didn't have to remember to renew them. Otherwise, it's all about getting involved and having input.

Frankly whether we pay the association fees or not, we will all benefit from these very things because the "public" really doesn't give a crap whether we are part of the association or not. They just want to have a good time. It's all about us supporting each other.

You'll always have BS in any organization/job situation/career so you can't avoid it. So our question becomes "what's in it for me". So to HAA, I think some are feeling like things have been taken away from them and that is leaving some feel empty. Am I correct folks?

One more thing to that on the magazines we get upset when we don't receive them and then I am certain the association takes some of that blame on their shoulders because the publications didn't produce. It was to be a benefit of ours for being a member. So I can see why the association doesn't want to provide them any longer so that is one less headache to deal with and move on to what they really should be focusing on. Hauntworld & Fangoria is the only ones that I have gotten faithfully as promised.

drfrightner
01-26-2011, 02:12 PM
Like I said I have nothing against those who are trying but its a losing battle because for $250 bucks or whatever I could buy a subscription to every single magazine, buy several DVD's go to haunt tours, or almost afford a new IPAD. Now those things are cool... LOL

This thing is going no where no matter how many committees someone chairs no matter what magazine they offer to pay for you, everything they would offer or could offer you can get on your own with your own money strictly based on if you want it or not.

All the people who made HHA happen, they did a LOT of hard work, they cared and they tried and they made things happen... they all deserve an award. The issue is not their effort or my effort... the issue is no matter what you do its not good enough for someone, the issue is because you don't run a tradeshow you can't make enough money to do anything, and lastly the issue is the mass majority of haunts are simply NOT interested.

In order to get haunts interested you have to be something that right now HAA can't be... relevant!

Education in this industry is EVERYWHERE... every Tom Dick and Harry is producing a tradeshow or convention, we have so many magazines even if they do or don't print one, we have every zombie and ghoul producing seminars, and events, we have industry websites all over the place, tons of people making books, dvd's, and more.

This is WHY it doesn't work...

Normally an association does these things but all we do is fight over the association . Seriously its not worth a continued discussion. We should drop it.

Larry

JamBam
01-27-2011, 09:32 AM
I have always believed that any association is good for the people involved whether it is haunters, skiers, or what ever.

Having a voice for the industry with the media is the most important thing in my opinion. It needs to be one that can answer questions form the variety of media that calls for information and one that is experienced.

The problem with the splintered group is all the bickering between a whole bunch of tempermental, successful, headstrong, and dedicated group that are involved in the Halloween themed industry called haunted houses.

The other problem is the low number of owners that join yet should simply because it is the industry association. I do think that nearly all the top 30 haunts in the U.S. have belonged to one of the two preceding groups. Many of the rest in the country do not consider themselves officially in the industry, just scratching it out, so they do not even attend shows either. I know of several in my area right now. The industry has evolved and is still pretty new as far as that is concerned.

The magazines that have been in the membership benefits have ALL had flaky publishing dates and promises. The embroidered bags and other stuff I don't care about except the association sticker. That is like the NFIB or Chamber stickers on other businesses and also is good for the website.

Larry, you have moved up and down and in and out of all the associations depending on whatever. You have worked hard and lobbied hard for some changes which were made. Just pay your dues and stay in the background if only because it is the thing to do.

Darkangel
01-27-2011, 10:26 AM
Brett,

As usual you make an intelligent and reasonable post. It's not about choosing sides like it was it's now about having one voice that represents the whole industry. We're not big and active enough for two groups. With accidents that happened and in the news involving well known haunts we need some kind of professional voice. Give a chance guys!

DA

Grimley
01-27-2011, 11:45 AM
" Doesn't it really matter though if you need an association to buy your magazine subscriptions then you are helpless"

I am going to forgive Larry for the above post because I think ye may have been working at the Darkness all night and was not in his right mind. I don't need an association to buy me anything. I was told to get the membership rather than signing up with all of the different mag which makes a lot of sense. Help the haunt industry and get the mags. That was the idea.

So according to Larrys quote I should have purchased all of the mags subscriptions in addition to the membership I already had.

"As for vendor discounts I really don't know why that drum is beat on so much because you can get CHEAPER discounts YOURSELF you just have to ask"

I could be wrong but when it came to HHA and people beating drums Larry you were there beating them the loudest when it was started.

I think the reason you are in this thread is it makes you look bad that Hauntworld was promised by you and the HHA for one year to new members. And now the deal has gone bad.

drfrightner
01-27-2011, 03:58 PM
Couple of things...

Brett... No I wont' be paying or joining. Why? Because I worked my ASS off trying to make this a better industry for ALL and then a couple numb nuts try to ruin it for everyone. I'm TIRED of trying to work on that issue for it to only backfire in your face. I'm not the ONLY ONE who has moved on from it or feels it will once again throw some new shadow over us all, create or be the center of some new drama. For 15 years or whatever its always been DRAMA...and if you deny that you are a flat out idiot or your are in complete denial. One or the other... I know you are not an idiot so not calling you one because I know you know it has been drama filled ... 'As the Haunt Turns'.

With that being said... we have to look at this industry and its habits. Will the industry pay for a bumper sticker, and this and that will they cough up $250 for that NO THEY WILL NOT!

Is an association worth $250 to support your industry YES IT IS I pay more than that for IAAPA, the difference is our or this association does nothing we all depend on to keep our industry from being ruined or helps this industry to move foward in the essential ways we require. So joining just to join and show support I have done that like many others for years and it hasn't worked out.

I'm NOT slamming those who want to try AGAIN... however I'm just pointing out that history has shown it will be more of the same and whether you join or don't join your business will not be helped or hurt.

So I do wish them luck truely, however I wish to stay clear of the drama it brings and rather focus on something like my own business, which I suggest you do the same!

The people who really CHANGED IAHA and got this whole merger thing going was the LIGHT that HHA brought to the table... HHA forced all this because those guys on the other side of the fence realized their number was UP if they didn't... that I find sad. You couldn't see through a glass window and see everything you do was wrong, and change on your own, rather wait until HHA becomes a HIT by our industry association standards and then change. And now this new HAA board really looks like the same OLD IAHA people who did nothign with IAHA in the first place.

So again I'll pass.


GRIM...

No I meant every word I said... yes you are helpless if you can't buy your own book bags, videos, seminars, get your own discounts, and a magazine... TOTALLY HELPLESS! I don't operate that way and never have I trust myself and rely on myself, I read everything that is said here, I listen to everyone who has something to say, I change my mind often, based on what I LEARN!

I don't need some association buying me a magazine... if a haunt needs to pay an association $250.00 so you can get a $10 magazine that is ... LOL

Now let me be clear here... is it a NICE benefit to joining? YES IT IS!

Should the association do this? Probably! As I've pointed out 100 times OUR INDUSTRY can NOT or should say IS NOT producing any of the tradeshows, main seminars, main education, nor does it have one of the big websites that promote the industry... and the list goes on.

This knock is against ANY of the assocaitions that have come before or after... the association would have to spill a lot of milk and upset a lot of people to do so... so it has never done so!

It could and a tradeshow would make the association by my figures about $400,000 annually... but we have a tradeshow company we are all happy with right now so the water is not splashing all over your hard wood floor!

Everyone is happy with status que for NOW...

I think I'm pretty clear in what I'm saying... an ASSOCIATION SHOULD do for you or your business or your industry WHAT YOU CAN NOT DO FOR YOURSELF OR BY YOURSELF. Buying a magaizine for you just isn't one of them... so I'm not upset they are no longer buying it.

But I do want you to know you are dead wrong... I did promise a magazine for a membership and I shipped EVERY SINGLE MEMBER A MAGAZINE EVERY SINGLE TIME one was released.

Issue 26 is being released in Jan 2011... HHA and IAHA for that matter has disbanded. Their board choose NOT to purchase magazines for members... and I don't disagree with that direction because like I said if you want one of these magazines no matter which one you can buy it.

On the other hand if HAA is going to charge you $250 for a membership it better be worth $250.00 ... see what I'm saying.

Not saying its not worth 250.00 I'm saying for you make sure it is and if getting all the magazines made it worth it then I guess its no longer worth it to you.

Larry

Grimley
01-27-2011, 04:17 PM
Larry I think you have so much bitterness towards the HHA that you lost site of what the original post was about.

SOMETHING WAS PROMISED>>>>>SOMETHING WAS PAID FOR>>>>>>THAT SOMETHING WAS NOT DELIVERED..

This is the problem I have with many of the vendors as a whole.

drfrightner
01-27-2011, 04:18 PM
Let me be clear to EVERYONE... so there are NO misunderstandings.

The new HAA board voted to STOP buying magazines all magazines for you as a membership benefit. I was merely informed as were all the other magazines not to ship out any more magazines.

IAHA and HHA disbanded the new HAA has NO deals in place with anyone to ship magazines to members as a benefit. There is NO deal gone sour just simply the new board decided buying you magazines was not a benfit they wanted to offer.

I don't disagree with them. They must figure out how to get your $250 or whatever the costs are to join and what benefits make it worth the price.

Every single member of HHA was shipped a magazine every single time one was released for about two years... we fullfilled every single promise we made in terms of the magazine.

This is January 2011 a new year and your membership with HHA and or IAHA is over and now if you choose to join another assocaition its with HAA and they have a new list of what they feel is worth the cost to join.

That is for you to decide its your money!

But understand we offered to ship magazines to the old IAHA membership just the same as HHA and was told no thanks. We did however have a deal in place as Ben described... it was my idea for HHA to ONLY purchase magazines on an issue by issue basis because some of the magazines don't print often or not at all ... so if a magazine printed it would be purchased and mailed.

We promised three magazines in 2010 and we shipped three magazines in 2010 to HHA members!

Additionally I informed the HAA board that several people complained about not getting this issue 26 coming soon... I was informed that HHA is no longer and its a new board and a new assocaition. I agree with that 110%.

If you feel the association should buy your magazines tell them... if you join that is, as a member use your voice! If you don't join then simply buy the magazines you want.

For $250.00 you could subscribe to a lot of magaiznes, buy a lot of dvd's and or buy a lot of seminars. So again its up to you to decide.

UPDATE: I did get a call from an HAA rep the other day saying the new board might change their mind and buy magazines and wanted to know pricing for them. I offered the magazine to them at COST as a show of support. If they decide to go foward buying our magazine or any other I'm sure you'll hear about it. Me personally I do not think you should or shouldn't join based on if you do or don't get a magazine. You should join based on the merits of what the association offers, promises to offer, or if you think they will help you grow your buiness.


Larry

PS: Grim I think YOU LOST sight of what I said. We promised every magazine to every member of HHA and we delivered a magazine to each member, each and every single time a magazine was published. I was informed by HAA NOT to ship any more magazines... if you have a gripe take it up with them!!! NOT ME... and FYI. I informed those guys... HHA had money in their accounts when they MERGED WITH IAHA and you shouldn't skip out on something promised. I see a membership as OVER the day the TW show starts... this is what I told them, I said I think we should SHIP this one last magazine because its shipping BEFORE TW... they said they would let me know and the answer is NO!

Not my fault buddy! Sorry.

jakprintsHAUNT
01-27-2011, 05:21 PM
I was involved in 1 meeting on the marketing committee prior to the season start. Other than that, I never got emailed or called except to say, "I would be contacted when meeting started". Didn't happen.


Are you talking about the conference call meeting of the Marketing Committee with the marketing company? I was in that meeting too (I think there were only 5 of us including the reps from the PR/Marketing firm), and also was the last of anything I heard about the marketing committee that I joined. Just wanted to be involved and help. I know I made some great suggestions in the meeting, but never seen or heard about any of the stuff they said they were doing...other than in the newsletter.

Im up in the air whether to join the new one...I also still have been having the hardest time getting the prize I won at the IAHA banquet last year honored....but thats a whole other issue. Maybe they can put it towards a membership for me? lol.

I agree with Larry that for the organization to be effective they need to make a real difference and do something that helps everyone that they cannot do individually on their own. Magazines and discounts you can get on your own for the most part, parties and social events can be planned by anyone (especially when you still have to pay admission to get into them), and you dont need the association to create content for seminars or other educational resources...unless they are the driving force behind it all...

Again like Larry said it really needs to be something much bigger to be effective and to actually be a help to such a large industry. They have to be willing and find ways that will help not only the owners, but the vendors, the actors, and the fans (at least helping find ways to bring them) that come through the attractions and keep the blood flowing so to speak...as if the fans/customers arent coming through, they arent buying tickets or merchandise, the owners arent buying new props, merch, or services, and the industry fails. It all works hand in hand, and if an industry association is going to be in place to help...it needs to help it all...needs to be more in ways like a union....keeping everything in check and creating new opportunities. The industry runs ok without it, but might run better with it if done right..who knows unless it happens.

But it obviously has to start somewhere unless someone is willing to fork out the startup for something that big it needs to grow from something small. Lets hope this one can learn from the mistakes and problems of the past and mature into something great.

those are my thoughts on this one.

Mike "Pogo" Hach

Darkangel
01-27-2011, 07:54 PM
Larry,


Grimley is right you were beating the drum pretty hard when the HHA first started. It seems like when reading your posts you make it sound like if you support it and you are involved, then it's a good thing and therefore worth it. But on the flip side, if you are out and not involved it's a bad thing and not worth the money. It's onvious you don't support it why not do as you said you would and let it go and focus on your haunts and business and let the HAA do it's thing? Larry you were in IAHA years ago and more recently the HHA and it seemed to end badly for you as you left , why is that???




DA

drfrightner
01-27-2011, 11:22 PM
DA,

Unlike yourself the drama king of this board, I don't want or need to be involved in things that are nothing more than drama 24/7 I have better things to do!

I can't operate inside a circle where everyone has different agendas and mostly for themselves I'm lets do whats best for everyone. People want to run on these boards for a reason and most of the time its selfish.

I can't operate in that environment.

Lastly, let me say this I realized if you read anything I write, that only after trying to do somethign RIGHT did I realize just how much this industry doesn't care about an association. Its not about is it worth the money or not worth the money, its about spend the time on this which doesn't basically nothing and feed into it, or turn your attention directly on what helps you directly.

My point is to anyone JOIN if you think its WORTH IT TO YOU, if NOT don't... it won't hurt you or help you either way. If you want to give your money to them great but in my opinion it won't help your business and it kind of sucks you into a drama pit, which actually might be great for you!

Larry

mindtumor
01-28-2011, 01:25 PM
Come on DA are you Sam Horner? Are you hauntedhousenut or just a fan of the original troll? Whats the scoop? Its cool man if you are, some of your stuff is pretty good, needs some polish but I think you'll get there.

Darkangel
01-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Jared,

Hauntedhousenut? Where's he been???

I'm not him, but I also have taken notice and have been impressed with some of your work here on the forum too. If it's polishing I need, perhaps you can take me under your wing and get me to par??? :)

DA