PDA

View Full Version : Trying to settle a disagreement



damon carson
07-26-2011, 01:57 AM
Can or should perma blood be used on your skin as a makeup alternative?
And to remove it should you use or would it be harmful to use acetone or brake fluid on your skin to remove it?
I know this might sound a bit out there but a big haunted house has actors using perma blood on there faces and bodies and they say these are things that they use to remove it. In my way of thinking it sounds ridiculous and outlandish! I wondered what everyone else thought on this. Please help settle this debate.
Thanks,
Damon

damon carson
07-26-2011, 02:14 AM
I vote this is one of the stupidest things ive heard in a long time! In my opinion perma blood looks good on clothing and props but it doesnt look realistic on skin. And to use such hard cleaners on your face would be damaging to your skin and complection. I wouldnt never think of using such hard chemicals on myself.
Damon

Spookyant
07-26-2011, 02:32 AM
Damon-

A couple of years ago, I accidentally left a used bottle of Perma Blood in our actors costume room. One of the actors put it on her face thinking it was blood makeup. I nearly freaked out thinking it would be super hard to come off skin. The next day, she came in and she said she had no problems taking it off with soap and water. We only use Perma Blood on our props and set dressing. I would not use it on any of our actors as a blood makeup. I was always under the impression that this is not supposed to be used on skin. Maybe Kip could chime in :-)

damon carson
07-26-2011, 03:20 AM
Im sure Kip would enjoy the extra business if he did market it as a makeup alternative. Although I dont think he would benefit in the long run if someone was to use it, or use it for a long period of time and suffer from some type of rash or skin damage either from it or whatever they claim to use to remove it. If its not marketed as a makeup why would somebody use it as that?! That just doesnt register with me. I dont think anyone would want to get sued over something like this. Perhaps a warning label would prevent some of this?
Damon

Killer Katie
07-26-2011, 09:37 AM
My vote is with Damon Carson... NO!!!! LOL
The chances of harmful chemicals seeping into your body and having allergic reactions, I would think would be hightened beyond my comfort level.
As a makeup artist, or owner, your job would be to do everything you can to make a great show, as well as create a safe environment for your actors. This seems kinda blatantly not safe.
I witnessed a "Corporate run" haunt last year, that was giving the actors furniture polish remover to remove their pro-aid. They also had people applying the adhesive that were causing loss of eyelashes and didn't care if it "burned", just use it.
May I say, I was horrified when I saw that! LOL
I am very cautious when it comes to others skins
Good luck with this guy :)

damon carson
07-26-2011, 11:04 AM
Personally I think this thread is important if your a haunt owner. Actors do alot of stupid stuff and you might not even know its going on under your own roof. We are always worried about the safety of our customers. I think you need to worry about the safety of your actors as well. They move props and lights ect. Many actors have done stupid stuff and even hung themselves. In this sue happy world anything can happen. And dont think for one minute if some young person comes to your haunt and the other actors throw all this crap on them lord know what it might be. Not necessarily perma blood but like furniture polish ect. Dont think some parents is gonna be like what the hell and try to sue the hell out of you for putting there child in danger or harms way. This would be the worst or most extreme scenario. All I got to say to others if you dont like it dont read it! Somethings need to be brought up or addressed so others dont get hurt or suffer from it in the long run!
Damon
Frightmasters

hauntedkimmy
07-26-2011, 04:44 PM
I wouldn't use it for skin unless the bottle said so.

My hubby has skin sensitivity issues and simply brushing up against his skin with something wonky causes hives or a weird rash. No telling what would happen to a sensitive skinned person when you dump a bunch of stuff on them like permablood that you have no idea what the ingredients are.

It might be totally safe to use and just not labelled safe for skin as to not have to disclose the recipe, but I wouldn't chance it. Theatrical blood is cheap and easy to find and works great, washes off skin easily, and is hypoallergenic. If even for legality issues, I'd stick with theatrical blood. Just my humble opinion. :)

jakprintsHAUNT
07-26-2011, 07:22 PM
As far as using it on your skin I would not recommend it, as I do not believe it is meant for that. The ingredients are not listed so again you really don't know what you are putting on your skin if you did so. Whenever I am working with it and get bits on my hands I always get the "you're bleeding" comment later if I dont get it off. It is not the easiest thing in the world to get off. It does look amazingly realistic and wish other actual makeup bloods did look and dry like it, but the closest I have seen is Cinema Secrets FX or Hollywood Blood. I do remember a thread about permablood a year ago and if I am not mistaken Kip did not recommend using on skin and using gloves as it could stain your skin.

As far as the removerss.....Brake cleaner I would absolutely put nowhere near my skin without gloves let alone on my face! Acetone will work but is meant more for removing nail polish. Its pretty harsh stuff if you don't use it sparingly and/or have sensitive skin. Ive only used it if I had no other choice and really needed to get off adhesive that I didnt have or lost remover for. I prefer always using the remover designed for the makeup product, or Isopropyl Mysristate.

Like Katie said, especially if you do not know what is in it, or the medical history of who it is being applied on you have to be very careful with anything being applied to an actor's skin, especially the face. There are a whole myriad of reactions that can occur in different people, as well as most red dyes already naturally being an irritant, especially in the eyes (it has been known to sometimes cause infections). There was a local makeup shop near me that was doing a full head latex demo on a young lady that had never worn makeup. He did not test her skin first, and she was unaware she had a severe latex allergy. While applying the makeup he did not realize when he thought she had fallen asleep in the chair, she had actually passed out due to her air passageway closing from swelling (again something he really should have noticed regardless). It was removed and she was rushed to the hospital and ended up being ok, but definitely a lesson to be learned to always test your actors skin with products they have never used before, reactions can be from nonexistent to severe.

Be carefula and be smart about what you use.

Never, ever, EVER use superglue as a replacement for an adhesive either! (have heard too many horror stories about this...you will end up in the ER and/or disfigured).

Mike "Pogo" Hach

Darkangel
07-26-2011, 08:44 PM
This really is a dumb question it's clearly marketed as a permanent paint to be used on props, scenery or even costumes. Might as well splash some Rustoleum on yourself and use paint thinner to remove it them go see a dermatologist lol!

DA

spookhole
07-26-2011, 08:48 PM
Nah I saw go ahead and use it...then use a belt sander and a razor blade to remove it and sue the dumbass haunt owner that told you to go ahead and use it on skin...Do these people think about what they are doing to there actors and their faces...or do they say...Hey this seems like a great idea.

damon carson
07-26-2011, 09:06 PM
Dark it is stupid! Thankyou Captain Obvious! But the thing is people are doing it. And these people that told me they do it argued that it couldnt hurt you to use it on your face or body and they use these other materials to remove them. Spook Im right along with ya man! Another option is after you use brake fluid on your face and hands ect light a cigarette and burn off the remainder of perma blood still stuck to your skin. LOL! Insane isnt it!
Damon

Haunted Prints (EOM)
07-26-2011, 09:07 PM
NIGO , no perma blood on skin. Bad idea.

N2SPOOKINU
07-26-2011, 09:12 PM
I love permablood BUT not on the actors! There are plenty of other options out there and I'm sure Kip would not condone the use of Permablood on any actor. Kip...... ??? I'm waiting his reply.
Greg
Fearfest

damon carson
07-26-2011, 09:13 PM
Same here Greg thanks for your reply! Even what Mike said when applying it you want to wear gloves! This was another thing that was argued.
Damon

Darkangel
07-26-2011, 09:46 PM
Spook,

I hear you loud and clear about people using the belt sander and razor on their faces. But it might be an improvement on some people's faces there's not too many attractive people overall in this industry from what I've seen so why not??? Jk lol

DA

Joe P
07-27-2011, 08:54 AM
thats some expensive make up!

LadyRogue86
07-27-2011, 10:41 PM
The only people who I have ever heard of using permablood for their FACE actually OWNED the bottle THEMSELVES. It's NOT like the haunt advised them to do so, they did it of their own free will and knowing full well the side effects that it could have.
I have used it on my arms and legs when I had no other alternative for a photoshoot (see attached photos) that I was in and it came off with a babywipe! Very simple. Man, I knew someone who used Red Car Paint as make up blood this past weekend. You use what you have at hand.
As far as acetone, we're talking about Nail Polish remover! Yes it stinks but it works on getting sticky stuff off of everything! I like it better then Goop off.
And the brake fluid... that's a joke... come on now lets read a little sarcasm into what is meant to be a JOKE

Mad Wax Sculptor
07-28-2011, 03:00 AM
NO!!! Thats clearly not its intended use. Im sure everyone would agree this is crazy. Bloody marys blood is so much better to use for an actor.

Mad Wax Sculptor
07-28-2011, 03:02 AM
its only a matter of time before we hear about the anti freeze green fog juice again

damon carson
07-28-2011, 09:24 AM
Lol! Spray paint? This is clearly being someone very desperate for blood! And if you have enough money for perma blood why the hell cant you go to the local costume shop and buy makeup or fake blood that is meant to be put on yourself?! This is my point idiotic actors that dont know there a** from hole in the ground. Young know it alls that dont think anything can harm them. And I didnt say this haunted house gave them the blood I said the actors were doing it. The owner might not know anything about it? Who knows. This is a heads up for all haunted house owners. And regardless if perma blood is or isnt harmful I dont think they would want there perma blood wasted for makeup considering what it costs. And whatever they use to remove it could be. If your that desperate for blood I surprised the idiots havent cut themselves for even a more authentic effect. Stupid!
Damon

drfrightner
07-28-2011, 09:48 AM
I honestly don't know, and again honestly I think it best if Kip answers this question and leave out all the speculation.

Kip should know.

I'll tell him about this thread and see what he says. He's very busy I'm sure.

Larry

UnDeRTaKer313
07-28-2011, 10:08 AM
wether it is safe or not for skin is up to the guy that makes it.
but i can tell you acetone and brake fluid on your skin is so bad for your body.
every liquid you place on your skin gets absorbed into your body within 7 seconds, so if you want all of those toxins in your body, go ahead lol

Mad Wax Sculptor
07-28-2011, 12:41 PM
Carson 1 yr I did actually accidentally cut my hand open on the busiest night during the busiest hr . I couldnt break free to seek proper attention so I wrapped it and went on. I cant tell you how many people gawked at how cheesy and fake my real wound and real blood looked. Finally after much debate and many requests to see it I unwrapped it and squeezed it to make it bleed again. The poor girl giving me so much hell saw it and passed smooth out on the porch . No matter how real it looks or actually is its never good enough. Go with something safe and professional

damon carson
07-28-2011, 01:32 PM
Thats pretty bad! Ive had a small situation like that once. It must of looked real enough if she passed out. Im saying if your acting in this stuff for 8 hrs and you sweat whatever is in it will be absorbed into your pores. And what ever you might be using to remove it all these other chemicals could be harmful as well. Even say perma blood is okay which I cant see how it would be being a paint I dont think all the chemicals to remove it arent. And other replacements for blood are not safe either such as spray paint and lord knows what else people use or have tried. Its just unbelieveable!
Damon

hauntedkimmy
07-28-2011, 07:49 PM
The brake fluid thing gets me. I seriously hope that was a joke because that's scary if not. Never in a million years would I put brake fluid on my face. I whine like a girl getting it on my fingers, LOL! I also worry about chemical reactions as well. they might be stable alone, but mix them together it might peel your skin off....

Allen H
07-28-2011, 09:12 PM
Ladyrouge86- I commend your "get it done" spirit. But acetone is not a nice substace to put on your skin. Here is the MSDS please read before encouraging others to use it
-
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927062

Here is a fun bit-
"Classified Reproductive system/toxin/female,
Reproductive system/toxin/male [SUSPECTED]. The substance is toxic to central nervous system (CNS). The substance may
be toxic to kidneys, the reproductive system, liver, skin. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target
organs damage."
Oh and this fun quote-
" Skin Contact:
In case of contact, immediately flush skin with plenty of water. Cover the irritated skin with an emollient. Remove contaminated
clothing and shoes. Cold water may be used.Wash clothing before reuse. Thoroughly clean shoes before reuse. Get medical
attention."
Its a poor choice to use as a remover, Ive used it in the shop to get fiberglass off my hands as well as Naptha (which is way worse for you) but I wouldnt recommend it to anyone else or justify it by saying it isint that bad. Shop safety and make up room safety is a big deal. Our lack of knowledge and safety are one of the things that seperate us from the movie and fashion make up fields, and why we are looked down on a bit by them. If its your bodt be as flippant with safety and products as you like but respect the safety of others who may or may not know the long term effects.
Allen H

LadyRogue86
07-28-2011, 09:48 PM
The brake fluid thing gets me. I seriously hope that was a joke because that's scary if not. Never in a million years would I put brake fluid on my face. I whine like a girl getting it on my fingers, LOL! I also worry about chemical reactions as well. they might be stable alone, but mix them together it might peel your skin off....
It was a joke, check out my last post, #17...
It's amazing how some people can hear you say one thing sarcastically and then oh I don't know start a whole debate on a forum about how horrible your comment was...
But you know considering that I said I had a friend use RED CAR PAINT and suddenly that is now being called SPRAY PAINT, I guess I can understand how you can misinterpret sarcasm too! I'm not saying one is better then the other.
My whole thing is to each his own.

Mad Wax Sculptor
07-29-2011, 12:38 AM
I will say this accidental exposure of perma blood to my cloths and fingers while working is pretty hard to get off . I love it!!! orange pumice hand cleaner works well to get it off

damon carson
07-29-2011, 01:23 AM
No I was specificially told that brake fluid was used by this one actor. And believe it or not its from the same haunted house. You think some people would be smart enough to figure stuff like this isnt good for you! I guess young and dumb people just got this invincible know it all attitude and really are to dumb or stubborn to care. Its sad really. Allen thankyou for posting the effects of accetone! That was another thing I was told was harmless and this was from someone we know from hauntworld chat. Looks like Im winning this debate. Which Im not even trying to. Im more worried about people using this stuff and being harmed than winning anything. And also its important to inform haunt owners as well. Car paint, detail paint, spray paint I dont see much difference its for a car not your body! Or some other metal!
Damon

hauntedkimmy
07-29-2011, 05:28 AM
It was a joke, check out my last post, #17...
It's amazing how some people can hear you say one thing sarcastically and then oh I don't know start a whole debate on a forum about how horrible your comment was...
But you know considering that I said I had a friend use RED CAR PAINT and suddenly that is now being called SPRAY PAINT, I guess I can understand how you can misinterpret sarcasm too! I'm not saying one is better then the other.
My whole thing is to each his own.

Thanks Lady, I read that one, just didn't hear the original comments made to Damon that prompted this thread and wasn't sure if the brake fluid thing had originated from a joke you had made or someone entirely different. :)

With all of the fire safety and codes, etc in place, I wonder why the industry powers that be haven't spelled out a safety thing for handling makeups etc. You would think they do have safety standards for tattooing and piercing...heck even in a nail salon, but nothing for this? Same basic risk of contamination, possibly worse threat in some cases.

Killer Katie
07-29-2011, 08:02 AM
Technically, they have all the warnings and uses displayed on the bottles, so policing it SHOULD be a ridiculous notion (obviously, it isn't.LOL)
Sadly, like ALL warning labels on everything, someone will have to get very badly hurt with lawsuits and publicity before anything will happen.
In this SUE-HAPPY world, it will take one of these idiots that will find a loophole, so that when they are blinded by whatever they are using, they will be millionaire idiots.

I've had to have conversations with "professionals" that have worked for me about what they do on themselves isn't necessarily what they should do on actors. Especially under the age of 18. I am of the thought that the artist is in a position of "knowing" and the actor will listen to them because they are supposed to know better.

In my unicorns and rainbows thoughts, everyone would have enough common sense to not uses something that could effectively shut down organs, cause your skin to burn and bubble, or cause your face to be able to be cast in a horror movie without extra makeup, but alas that world doesn't exist.
And just because you would do it to "get it done", doesn't make it a smart choice for your health.

But hell....... who in this industry thinks about that until they are old like me, right? :)

LadyRogue86
07-29-2011, 12:45 PM
Thanks Lady, I read that one, just didn't hear the original comments made to Damon that prompted this thread and wasn't sure if the brake fluid thing had originated from a joke you had made or someone entirely different. :)

With all of the fire safety and codes, etc in place, I wonder why the industry powers that be haven't spelled out a safety thing for handling makeups etc. You would think they do have safety standards for tattooing and piercing...heck even in a nail salon, but nothing for this? Same basic risk of contamination, possibly worse threat in some cases.
Hey, no problem, it wasn't actually my joke as I would never have be quick enough to think of that! LOL, but I do know where and how this all started and it has fully gotten out of control! Craziness... what can ya do?

LadyRogue86
07-29-2011, 12:52 PM
Technically, they have all the warnings and uses displayed on the bottles, so policing it SHOULD be a ridiculous notion (obviously, it isn't.LOL)
Sadly, like ALL warning labels on everything, someone will have to get very badly hurt with lawsuits and publicity before anything will happen.
In this SUE-HAPPY world, it will take one of these idiots that will find a loophole, so that when they are blinded by whatever they are using, they will be millionaire idiots.

I've had to have conversations with "professionals" that have worked for me about what they do on themselves isn't necessarily what they should do on actors. Especially under the age of 18. I am of the thought that the artist is in a position of "knowing" and the actor will listen to them because they are supposed to know better.

In my unicorns and rainbows thoughts, everyone would have enough common sense to not uses something that could effectively shut down organs, cause your skin to burn and bubble, or cause your face to be able to be cast in a horror movie without extra makeup, but alas that world doesn't exist.
And just because you would do it to "get it done", doesn't make it a smart choice for your health.

But hell....... who in this industry thinks about that until they are old like me, right? :)
I the case in question, it's not actually the make up artist's doing. It's a few (like 2 or 3) actors who have their own bottles and due to the price they don't let anyone else even look at the bottle let alone use the permablood so it's not like it's being passed around and put on underage actors. I could see where the fear of that would come, but it's not actually being done. Like I said in one of my posts, I only used it when I realized that my regular bottle of make up blood had dried up. And this was at 8 PM in May, on the site of the photoshoot I was apart of and I couldn't make a run to find a Party City or other costume place. I was able to water down just enough of the regular make up blood for my face, but ended up using the permablood on my arms and legs for the evening. I'm not concerned about this for myself as it was a one time deal and it was on for less then 4 hours. Came off with a baby wipe, with no need for harsh chemicals. So I've had not problems with it. Would I suggest it for others, no, but it did work when necessary.

Killer Katie
07-29-2011, 08:12 PM
Yeah, kinda said that. "What you do for yourself, is not necessarily what you do on others."
You don't have to defend your actions to me.
I was stating my opinion on the entire subject :)

kpolley
07-30-2011, 08:21 AM
So I have been swamped but finally mamaged to get over here. Let me settle this for all of you. First, I present the applicable information from the Perma-Blood MSDS:




2. Composition, Information on Ingredients

COMPONENT:
Product has been certified as non-toxic by The Art and Creative
Materials Institute, Inc. and conforms to ASTM D-4236 Standard Practice for
Labeling Art Materials for Acute and Chronic Adverse Health Hazards.

3. Hazards Identification

None

EC CLASSIFICATION (CALCULATED):
Not classified.

EMERGENCY OVERVIEW:

COLOR:
Red

PHYSICAL FORM:
Liquid

ODOR:
Fruity odor

MAJOR HEALTH HAZARDS:
No significant target effects reported.

POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS:
INHALATION:
None

SKIN CONTACT:
None

EYE CONTACT:
None

INGESTION:
None

CARCINOGEN STATUS:

OSHA:
No

NTP:
No

IARC:
No

4. First Aid Measures

INHALATION:
It is unlikely that emergency treatment will be required. Remove from exposure. Get medical attention, if needed.

SKIN CONTACT:
It is unlikely that emergency treatment will be required. If adverse effects occur, wash with soap or mild detergent and large amounts of water. Get medical attention, if needed.

EYE CONTACT:
It is unlikely that emergency treatment will be required. Wash with large amounts of water or normal saline until no evidence of chemical remains (at least 15-20 minutes). Get medical attention immediately.

INGESTION:
Contact local poison control center or physician immediately



So yes, Perma-Blood is safe and non-toxic...but I don't ever recommend using it on skin since that's not its intended use. The paint is made for permanent use on props, walls, etc. and anytime anyone asks me about using it as make-up I always say that I don't recommend it. Will people still do it? Yes...but not with my blessing. So my advise to everyone is use the blood for what it is intended...but know that it has been shown to have no skin contact issues. Again, that is in no way an endorsement, only a statement of fact.

And finally, while we are speaking about the blood, remember that we are currently running a promotion to get free blood if you donate to the joplin relief efforts. Attached is our newest ad with some more details. Check it out and help if you can. Thank you.

10276

damon carson
07-30-2011, 11:06 AM
Well that about wraps things up on this thread I would say. Like I said earlier regardless if perma blood had anything in it harmful or not the things said they were using to remove it are. And I think this thread will be very useful for alot of haunt owners to keep track of what actors are doing in there actors room and makeup rooms. Alot of other crazy things I had never heard of being used Katie mentioned and its really good to have let the cat out of the bag on this I think. Maybe some people will think twice before using things as acetone or brakefluid, furniture polish, car paint ect and lord knows whatever else they dont stop to think about the effects it can have on there skin or body. Thanks for everyone who gave input on this thread. And for the ones who didnt we know who you are.
Damon

Twin Locusts
07-30-2011, 05:11 PM
I was going to comment on the general issue of condoning the use of any substance off label as an owner but Katie said it better than I can.

One outstanding buffer between an owner and a lawsuit around any OSHA violation is conducting training that certifies employees to use equipment, substances,
whatever. By putting the burden of knowledge as to how to properly use material you going a long way toward protecting yourself from suit. That's why fortune 500
companies spend hundreds of thousands a year on "hostile workplace environment / sexual harassment training". When a suit comes down they can claim they took positive
action to prevent the incident.

I've never needed lessons in sexual harassment but that's just me, ba da bing :)

damon carson
08-09-2011, 06:34 PM
This is a quote taking from world famous makeup artist, prop maker, director, & actor Tom Savini. Taken from his book Bizzarro The Art & Technique of Special Make-up Effects.

Whatever the materials, safety and first aid are important to keep in mind at all times. I had an experience recently which punched home this fact to me. I found myself getting deathly ill without knowing it; my liver was about to fail. It seems my blood picked up an abundance of chemicals through the surface of my skin and through breathing. Luckily, I learned what these "materials" were doing to me in plenty of time to avoid any extremely serious problems, and I've since taken extra precations to avoid such things from happening again: using rubber gloves, a respirator ect when the need arrises. It's extremely important to be aware of toxic, carsiogenic chemicals at all times; aceton is one of them.

Tom Savini

I would say those are words to live by!

Damon
Frightmasters