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View Full Version : This is HORRIBLE ... Time for a Change



drfrightner
12-14-2012, 11:56 AM
This is SICK and an OUTRAGE... time for serious gun control laws! Guns killing school children, people on our streets, its time to control guns! I'm sorry this isn't a haunted themed post but I'm totally sickened! http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-school-district-locked-down-shooting-report-151955384--abc-news-topstories.html

Imagine someone coming to your haunt and just blasting away... guns need to be controlled!

I'm about to vomit I'm so disturbed by this!

Larry

RobbeOne
12-14-2012, 12:00 PM
It's not the guns. It's the people behind the guns. Right now all my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims families. Horrible day for all of us, especially those who have children.

screamforadream
12-14-2012, 12:18 PM
The school psychologist is a family friend, not someone I interacted with recently but my parents knew her well, and were still hoping she hasn't passed. It hasn't been officially confirmed yet, other than she was shot.

However, it is NOT the guns fault. I want LOOSENED gun laws because of incidents like this. If a crazy psycho wants a gun he'll get a gun! It's disgusting to want tighter gun control law, it should be the total opposite! Make things fair! There's a reason you don't mess with texas! To have stricter gun laws is STUPID. End of story. And this is coming from someone who's family has been affected by this and I don't hunt and am not a redneck, lol, but I do skeet and am a pretty good shot, those bastards who shot those kids and staff wouldn't have had time to fire if I was there! ;)

zombietoxin
12-14-2012, 12:26 PM
Two things-

First, I don't come here to delve into the problems of humanity and I wish this place was kept free of it, and I am barely able to make this post because I too am sick over it, but since you managed to make some crazy statement that affects us all I am.

Second, what the hell are you talking about?! Gun control? You mean enacting strict laws that prohibit some and restrict others from ownership- like we are already doing? Or do you mean enacting strict punishment for those that use firearms in a crime- like we are already doing? Or do you mean weapon confiscation from everyone? Gun control... HA! Or are you just venting?

Sorry if this hits you in the face, but those that cannot control themselves need someone else to do it for them, right?

-sick!

drfrightner
12-14-2012, 12:36 PM
Yes Americans have been TRAINED by the gun industry to teach people guns don't kill... but the gun industry has immunity from the Government for lawsuits even though it has been proven time and time again the they sell their guns to dealers who have track records of selling guns under the table, or oddly enough have lots of guns stolen or worst selling guns to people who shouldn't get them. Not to mention they fight for peoples rights to own guns people don't need like assault weapons, semi automatic guns, and stock pile 1000's of rounds of ammo... I'm sorry this country and guns its nuts. In England you can't have a weapon and you don't see people running around there and kill school children.

What we need is to allow everyone to who is not a criminal to carry guns like the old west, or no one to carry them at all. When you talk gun control you can even go into things like if a criminal is caught with a weapon its an automatic 5 years in jail like automatic, limit how much ammo you can have, or how many guns you can have in your house, or what types of guns, and or simply put let every law abiding person carry a concealed weapon so when these idiots try this stuff we can all blow them away.

What happened today, what happened just a few days ago, what happened in Colorado multiple times, and what seems to be happening like non-stop is deranged people get their hands on guns, tons of ammo and go around blowing people away and now we enter a school and kill 20 small children. This is out of control!

I got a question who is packing when you run your haunt... I've never carried a weapon at my haunt but now I think I should. I probably need a bullet proof vest to go with it.

Larry

Evernight
12-14-2012, 12:41 PM
Don't mean crap to the psychos using them for crimes and murder - Sure you can take away all the guns.....then they will just find some other way to wipe out people - like bombs. Laws only work for those willing to abide by them.....and I highly doubt some deranged psycho is going to stop and go "Oh maybe I should rethink this because it's illegal"

Evernight
12-14-2012, 12:46 PM
Also take a minute to google "england Shooting Spree" and then tell us that shooting's don't happen in England - Here is just one example for you: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/02/uk.england.shootings/index.html

RobbeOne
12-14-2012, 12:53 PM
For the record...

A man in China went into a school and was shanking the children. This happened today with a knife. Crazed lunatics will do what they want even if they don't have a gun... it's the deranged people that do these acts, not the weapon.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/china-school-attack_n_2298430.html?utm_hp_ref=canada

drfrightner
12-14-2012, 01:12 PM
Yes you are correct about England it happened like one time in a zillion years... this has happened already in this country like 10 or 12 times this year alone. This doesn't happen in Sweeden, France, Finland, blah, blah... they have gun control laws.

You can't say because it happened once here or there that its the norm there... here its the norm.

Did you know more people die from guns crimes in America than every country in the WORLD COMBINED! If that doesn't tell you there is a problem you are mentally ill!

I'm not saying I know what the answer is because I don't... I'm saying it needs to be debated and acted on something that can curb this non-stop violence. Larry

drfrightner
12-14-2012, 01:13 PM
Here is a cool article of mass killing sprees just this year ALONE...

http://news.yahoo.com/tiimeline-major-shooting-incidents-united-states-185007308.html

This doesn't include the 20,000 or so people who will die this year in gun crimes.

Larry

HauntedPaws
12-14-2012, 01:15 PM
What's more interesting is how he got in the school. Schools in CT are always locked and the entrance at least has a camera and buzzer system.

Evernight
12-14-2012, 01:24 PM
Yes but again.....it comes down to those who will abide by the law....and those who do not. Sure guns laws work great for those that will abide by them - it has been proven time and time again people who are intent on killing others will find a way to do it, knives, bombs, hell even recently a bow was used......I didn't see anything about controlling bow usage.

No one knows how to stop these things - laws may curb a few incidents but if someone is set on destroying other peoples lives they will find a way.

terrormasue
12-14-2012, 01:33 PM
There are now words for what has happened today. We have lost precious little souls to heaven. My husband is a police officer. I can telly you that almost 100% of the guns that are used in crimes at least in his area are stolen. We have the right to bear arms to take up weapons to defend ourselves and our property. I do not ever want that right taken away from me. We, meaning myself and my family, have come by our weapons legally but I will tell you if they are taken away the criminals will still have theirs. They come by their weapons illegally. Why would I want a criminal to know that I have no way to defend myself. I say HELL NO! I will tell you if someone breaks into my house or pulls a weapon on an innocent person and I have a gun on me I will shoot them. I am so angry right now I just don't know what to do. That's all I have.

Sue

drfrightner
12-14-2012, 02:25 PM
As a father I feel so so so sad for those parents who lost a child today. This is really tragic! I would do anything to have predicted this and done something about it. My day was totally ruined! I can't believe someone would do this! Larry

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 02:50 PM
Larry, I completely share your anger, sorrow and a dozen other emotions that cannot be processed. I would like to share with you my experience on the subject of guns. Being a firearms instructor and a personal self-defense instructor, I have literally spent thousands of hours studying the subject of active shooter scenarios. I have spoken to tactical team members from Columbine, and I have interviewed more victims of violent crime than I can remember. I will try to refrain from political points of view and only share with you what I have learned. In every single case that there has been an active shooter scenario in the United States the shooter either killed himself or gave up the minute that they were confronted with resistance. The most valuable information that I have obtained from this morbid study, is that if you want to live, your best chance is to immediately resist. In situations that there was no resistance the body count usually averages 3 to 5 fatalities per minute. I have also learned that in almost every case the shooter chooses a place where possession of weapons is prohibited. You never hear about an active shooter scenario in a police station, or at a gun show. These people are generally cowards and will not commit their heinous acts in a place that there would be resistance. If the 2nd amendment were ever repealed, guns would not magically disappear; any more than illegal drugs have disappeared. Those who wish to obtain guns and harm other people will still be able to get them. The difference is that instead of schools being safe havens for active shooters, the whole country would become a potential killing field. A much more effective solution to school shootings would be to place armed people in the school. This could mean police, this could mean school staff. The most effective way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to have a good guy with a gun. Guns are a useful tool. They are what enable a 120 lb. woman a fighting chance against a 200 lb. rapist. They can take credit for the very existence of the freest nation that has ever existed in the history of man. Lastly, I would like to caution everyone to keep their emotions in check and to be careful of what you wish for. If there is ever an attempt to take guns from law abiding citizens, it would mean a blood bath on our own soil that has not been seen since the Civil War. There are at least 15 million gun owners that would die, face down in a pile of brass before they would surrender their guns. You can say that is crazy, and you can pretend that it is just macho posturing, but it is a fact. You also might think that you would not be affected, but it would affect everyone in the country. Before anyone vents about what should or should not be done, they need to educate themselves about the problem, and weigh the consequences of the decision.

zombietoxin
12-14-2012, 03:28 PM
At risk of being thought of as "another gun nut" I submit-

Why Carrying a Gun is a Civilized Act

Why The Gun Is Civilization

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

HauntedPaws
12-14-2012, 03:39 PM
There is no reason anyone needs assault weapons. My thinking is he killed the mother's class out of jealously for her affection and they were all 5 YEARS OLD !!!! My wife is 1st grade teacher in CT and I was scared shitless until I read Newtown.

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 03:46 PM
Zombie Toxin is a fantastic example of a law abiding gun owner. Society is safer, more civilized, and possibly more polite when he is out in public. In my experience CCW holders are the best, brightest, and most responsible that our society has to offer. CCW holders are typically masters at diffusing situations through the use of verbal judo, and when necessary are usually more proficient with their weapon than most police officers. Everyone should fullfill their civic duty of being a responsible gun owner who excercises his right to bear arms. We would all be safer, more civilized and certainly more polite.

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 04:08 PM
There is no reason anyone needs assault weapons. My thinking is he killed the mother's class out of jealously for her affection and they were all 5 YEARS OLD !!!! My wife is 1st grade teacher in CT and I was scared shitless until I read Newtown.

Assault weapon is a political buzz word that the “firearms experts” in Congress have repeatedly failed to define. The technical definition of assault weapon is a select fire, semi-auto, that accepts a detachable magazine. These types of weapons are titled as Class 3 weapons that only the very wealthy can afford, and even then in only a select few states, and then only after they have passed an extensive back ground check and have registered the weapon with the BATF and have paid a $200 tax. No one within the firearms community uses the word assault weapon, unless they are talking about a Sturmgwehr, but that is another topic for another time.
When the first gun control act was being argued in the Supreme Court, even they recognized that the 2nd amendment was written as a final check and balance on government and the last resort to resist tyranny. For this reason, they would not allow any weapons that were readily used by a regular infantry man within the US armed forces to be banned from private ownership. On a side note, the list of guns that were titled as class 2 firearms was incorrect due to the blunderbuss which was a short barreled shotgun, but let’s keep this simple.
Magazine fed, semi-auto rifles or assault weapons as you like to call them are needed to keep tyrants from taking our other 9 amendments that are in the bill of rights. In my humble opinion, any able bodied man who does not own an appropriate firearm to defend his family, and his country, and does not have the wherewithal to stand up when the time comes, does not deserve the freedom that our forefathers have entrusted us with.

HauntedPaws
12-14-2012, 05:22 PM
Seeing as corporate tyranny already controls the nation I think you've missed that bus awhile ago.

If you need a magazine fed weapon to defend yourself perhaps you need better aim or logic would say you probably should've left the situation.

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 05:53 PM
Seeing as corporate tyranny already controls the nation I think you've missed that bus awhile ago.

If you need a magazine fed weapon to defend yourself perhaps you need better aim or logic would say you probably should've left the situation.

you don't know me well enough to critique my aim or my logic. The point of the second ammendmet was to ensure that The People and those who might oppress them would be on equal footing. This means military grade hardware. Right now we are not on equal footing, and I don't want to see it get worse. I swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. The least I can do is defend the Constitution on this forum. If the US ever does find itself in total tyrranny your "huntin gun" will not suffice against multiple, well armed, well trained intruders, I doubt that your skills will either, considering your attitude.

Darkangel
12-14-2012, 05:58 PM
Lets not forget that the constitution and the right to bear arms was written at a time when Americans were worried about the Red Coats breaking down their door, it was war with the British and a gun was necessary. Also back them people still shot their own food for survival. Nowadays we have a place to get food, it's called a grocery store. This idiot had mental problems but he still managed to get guns, we need tighter laws for sure to endure this doesn't happen again.


DA

Evernight
12-14-2012, 06:19 PM
There we go again...."We need LAWS" does no one get the fact that criminals do not follow the laws????? You can say you want tougher gun laws, tougher punishments, etc. Do you really think some deranged lunatic that plans on shooting a bunch of people cares about your laws??? Do you think he cares about the punishment when his plan is to kill himself afterwards????

How are MORE laws going to fix that?????? Explain to me how your going to get a criminal to agree to these new laws you want.

Darksidestew
12-14-2012, 06:38 PM
you go evernight...

stew

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 06:40 PM
The level of technology that was present when the Constitution was written is completely irrelevant. The Constitution was written to acknowledge our God given rights in order to safeguard us against an oppressive government. The Constitution does not grant us our rights, it limits what the government can do to infringe upon them. This was a result of their experience with the inherent nature of government to seek more power. The Constitution is immuned from the effects of technology, because it was written to address human nature. Human nature is constant. Thousands of years from now those in power will seek more power. Here is the million dollar question. Is there really anyone here that trusts the government enough to give them absolute power? Keep in mind your favorite political party might lose the next election. Speak up, who here trusts them that much?

Darkangel
12-14-2012, 07:34 PM
There we go again...."We need LAWS" does no one get the fact that criminals do not follow the laws????? You can say you want tougher gun laws, tougher punishments, etc. Do you really think some deranged lunatic that plans on shooting a bunch of people cares about your laws??? Do you think he cares about the punishment when his plan is to kill himself afterwards????

How are MORE laws going to fix that?????? Explain to me how your going to get a criminal to agree to these new laws you want.

Are you really that unaware that the vast majority of these homicidal episodes are done by people who got their guns legally, no one has said any of them were criminals and got guns illegally. Guns are too easy to get and the gun toting rednecks who still go out shooting helpless animals in the woods for "sport" even though its not close to being a sport, are the only ones complaining.

DA

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 08:24 PM
Are you really that unaware that the vast majority of these homicidal episodes are done by people who got their guns legally, no one has said any of them were criminals and got guns illegally. Guns are too easy to get and the gun toting rednecks who still go out shooting helpless animals in the woods for "sport" even though its not close to being a sport, are the only ones complaining.

DA

Evidently they are not easy enough to get, because the only person in the school that had a gun was the bad guy. One competant person with a firearm could have saved a lot of lives today. So simple yet even the most obvious things can evade some people.

austind
12-14-2012, 08:26 PM
My heart goes out to those effected by this event, it's sickening to see the lake of respect for your fellow man. Death was a too easy out for this guy. We have been killing each other long before guns even were invented. The problem with these guys is that all the games, tv, and music have desensitized people to the value of human life. Out lawing guns only takes the gun from good people who respect thier weapon and leaving them in the bad people's hands. If there were no guns we would use other things like a pipe bomb, poison or even a car as a group of kids are going home. If you want to cause harm to someone you will find a way. New gun laws will not fix this, when we don't enforce the ones we have. How come 25% of Detroiters own unlicensed guns and when they get caught the get a fine and 6 months of probation and that is it. Get the guns out of the people who don't know how to use them or respect them. I know the knee jerk reaction is to get rid of guns but we all know that is not going to happen, we need to push for harsher punishment for those who don't keep there weapons secure and safe. I just looked up a startling fact that it is estimated that 35% of fellows convicted of violent crimes have guns after release from prison.


Phatman

Badger
12-14-2012, 08:38 PM
For the record...

A man in China went into a school and was shanking the children. This happened today with a knife. Crazed lunatics will do what they want even if they don't have a gun... it's the deranged people that do these acts, not the weapon.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/china-school-attack_n_2298430.html?utm_hp_ref=canada

This bears repeating. If this had happened in the US would there be an outcry to ban cutlery? I'm sure most steakhouses would oppose that.

More info http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-man-slashes-22-children-near-china-school-20121214,0,6383015.story and an interesting quote: "In 2010, nearly 20 children were killed and 50 wounded in a string of copycat incidents around central China. China has strict gun control laws, so knives are the weapon of choice in violent crimes."

Remember, the 9/11 terrorists used boxcutters...

tonguesandwich
12-14-2012, 08:47 PM
Well someone here is going around with bug sprayers full of flammable liquid spraying people and lighting them on fire.
But real numbers
Florida allows guns to be carried (Stand your ground law) .. violent crime down approximate 37%
Switzerland close to US in guns in ownership and that all males after mandatory service must carry a gun until 30 or 34 yrs old depending on what their rank was when they were in... have almost zero violent crime from guns. So low they don't keep stats.

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 08:56 PM
14452 Joe Stalin called these types of people "useful idiots"

BrotherMysterio
12-14-2012, 09:08 PM
14452
Joe Stalin called these types of people "useful idiots"

Gotta respect the 'stache . . .

(That gave me my laugh for the day! Thank you!)

C.

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 09:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0vyxgJLJVA


This one is probably my favorite

Darkangel
12-14-2012, 09:22 PM
Evidently they are not easy enough to get, because the only person in the school that had a gun was the bad guy. One competant person with a firearm could have saved a lot of lives today. So simple yet even the most obvious things can evade some people.

Huh? Why would teachers or elementary school students need to carry guns, because that's all that's in a school. What you think the janitor should have guns in his broom closet? The gym teacher should stash guns behind the box containing the hula hoops? The music teacher has a handgun in the closet next to the xylophone? Dumbest thing I've heard today. It's a school, guns have no place if dumbasses with legal guns despite having mental issues didn't have guns made for killing people this disaster would have never happened.

If a sane man snaps but has no guns he won't shoot people, but that same man snapped with guns lying around now has the ability to kill dozens.

DA

BrotherMysterio
12-14-2012, 09:35 PM
. . . didn't have guns made for killing people . . .

What other kinds of guns are there?

C.

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 09:39 PM
Huh? Why would teachers or elementary school students need to carry guns, because that's all that's in a school. What you think the janitor should have guns in his broom closet? The gym teacher should stash guns behind the box containing the hula hoops? The music teacher has a handgun in the closet next to the xylophone? Dumbest thing I've heard today. It's a school, guns have no place if dumbasses with legal guns despite having mental issues didn't have guns made for killing people this disaster would have never happened.

If a sane man snaps but has no guns he won't shoot people, but that same man snapped with guns lying around now has the ability to kill dozens.

DA

Funny you should say that, I know a janitor that is an IDPA champion. This guy is more proficient with a handgun than any member of any SWAT team in the state. That's not really the point, but it is ironic.What I am suggesting is that CCW should be allowed in schools because statistics prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that active shooter scenarios do not take place where people may be armed. Statistically speaking active shooters either commit suicide or freeze within seconds of encountering resistance of any kind. In every case that I have studied, the shooter is so engrossed in shooting their victims that anyone could easily sneak up on them and strike or shoot. I would never advocate anyone leave a firearm unsecured where an unauthorized person could have access to it. If you took my concealed carry class you would know this. In fact you would probably get sick of me preaching the gospel of gun safety and responsible gun ownership. My views are based upon experience and fact. Your views appear to be based upon assumptions and emotions, so from my point of view, someone like you attempting a discussion like this with someone like me is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard.
BTW I would gladly offer free private lessons to any school employee who would like to obtain the skills to protect their students.

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 09:54 PM
I should also point out that the biggest advocates for allowing CCW in schools are police officers. The man who influenced my decision to support this step is a former SWAT commander who has been an advisor to the Attorney General. He now owns a private firearms school in southern Ohio, and makes a nice living training police agencys and elite military units from all over the world. I guess he must be a dumbass too. It amazes me how people who have no idea as to what they are talking about can have such a strong opinion. Stop watching Oprah!

Pumpkin King
12-14-2012, 10:05 PM
Huh? Why would teachers or elementary school students need to carry guns, because that's all that's in a school. What you think the janitor should have guns in his broom closet?

If a sane man snaps but has no guns he won't shoot people, but that same man snapped with guns lying around now has the ability to kill dozens.

DA

Play along with me on this one for a minute... let assume that a teacher had a gun in the classroom with the intention of protecting their children from situations like what happened today.

Of course, in the event that what happened today happened again, that teacher would be able to protect the children from the shooter. That's a gimmie.

But then there's that the argument that the teacher could turn on the kids herself, which is absolutely true. But this is the case with or weather or not a gun is present in the classroom. And regardless of weapon availability, if someone wants to do harm then they'll do it. In the current system, couldn't a teacher execute a school shooting even easier than someone outside of the school system?

Secondly, there's the fact that the students could accidentally be hurt with a gun in the classroom, and yes to an extent this is absolutely true... but that's why there's training for things like concealed cary permits that would need to be transfered to the teachers. So yes there is a risk factor but with more training and knowledge that risk goes down exponentially.

Now, imagine if every teacher in America carried a weapon. All of a sudden a school doesn't seem like such an easy target for a shooter; he knows that if he goes in there he would get stopped before he did any serious killing, so he choses to go somewhere else or not go anywhere at all. Someone said earlier "that's why they don't mess with Texas," and I think that's completely accurate. After all, if guns really were the problem, wouldn't this have happened in the South?

Mike Goff
12-14-2012, 10:26 PM
Ohio has had CCW for 8 years now. In the years leading up to them actually passing legislation the arguments were all the same. People said that it would be like the wild west, or that people having guns would accidentally shoot someone. They said that CCW carriers would succumb to the temptation of robbing places since they had easy access to a gun. They said that police officers would be put at risk during traffic stops. They said that road rage would escilate to deadly force. 8 years later none of these things have happened, not even once. If it did happen it would be all over the national news and they would make sure that we never forgot about it. I'm not saying that any of these things couldn't happen, because with numbers the chances go up. I am saying that it will never be the epidemic that all of the gun haters predicted it would be, or should I say hoped that it would be. As a society, we really do ourselves a diservice when we let our emotions rule our lives. When we allow assumptions to get in the way of common sense, it hurts everyone, and it frustrates the hell out of me to hear people who have no idea as to what they are talking about spew complete bullshit and righteous indignation. I would never require a teacher to carry a gun, that is ridiculous. I think that those who are willing to take the responsability to do so, should be allowed, and should be given the best training that money can buy. Even if no teachers opted to do so, the fact that they could would be a powerful deterent.

I have a CCW class to teach in the morning so I am off to bed, I will check in tomorrow. In the meantime let's use our heads.

Darkangel
12-14-2012, 10:30 PM
So now we have have these teachers out at the gun range learning to shoot and kill instead if doing their jobs of teaching our children.... Lets just weaponize everyone then and see how that works... Smh


DA

tonguesandwich
12-14-2012, 10:58 PM
Weaponizing everyone has worked very well in other countries dropping gun violence to almost zero (Switzerland).

Jim Warfield
12-15-2012, 12:26 AM
When there are large differences within a society as far as income level, success. It is a trust issue. (These are statements I heard on the radio today, kind of seems to make sense?)
Japan usually sees about 2 deaths a year from guns. They allow no guns, I guess?
Could Tasers ever replace guns in many instances? I'm asking, because I don't know?
Self defence, home or business defence. Not wanting to ever be a dead or a crippled victim is , I believe, what the majority of what most people are worried about.
Granted a true enemy of possibly a personal nature with hate in their heart and murder on thier mind will get the drop on the innocent and the unsuspecting .In such a scenario getting the second shot would usually never be good enough.
There are a myriad of problems with this whole discussion and few viable , real answers short of extreme solutions that a large number of our citizens would not be pleased with.
What was the number once written about as far as how many murders the average 12 yr. old kid has seen on TV and in the movies?
How many movie/TV murderers and woundings have any of us ever seen realistically shown with the aftermath of screams of pain, terror and the trigger-puller finding remorse and guilt? Almost never is what I remember. It's just pouint, squeeze, a recoil happens and those bad guys would often just lie down and then be forever quiet. So clean, quiet and quick.....but it's fiction.
The photo of the trigger-puller today looks like a very average young man, that nobody would even look twice at if they were trying to forecast what a serial-killer might look like.

drfrightner
12-15-2012, 01:27 AM
I think there will be a HUGE debate on capital hill on gun control this is something Obama wants so he's got the ammo now... I'm not really for or against anything specific I don't know what to do I just know something needs to be done. Hearing about 20 young children being murdered is to much to take. I'm really sad today thinking about what has happened. If there was anything I could do I would do it!

Larry

Mike Goff
12-15-2012, 05:17 AM
So now we have have these teachers out at the gun range learning to shoot and kill instead if doing their jobs of teaching our children.... Lets just weaponize everyone then and see how that works... Smh


DA

I guess that if you are a half glass empty kind of person you could say it like that. I prefer to say we train teachers how to defend themselves and how to protect the lives of their students. Keep in mind it would only be teachers that would volunteer. If they were to take lessons from me, or lessons from any Firearms instructor that I know, they would also be taught that deadly force is an absolute last resort. They would be taught other ways to handle the situation first. By the time they sat through my class, they would have more respect for how precious human life is than they had ever had before.

I can see that you are having difficulty understanding this concept. For me it is a clear choice, 27 dead is not morally superior to a teacher or a janitor puttting a bullet in some deranged lunatic in exactly 1.5 seconds after the first shot was fired.

Mike Goff
12-15-2012, 05:21 AM
I think there will be a HUGE debate on capital hill on gun control this is something Obama wants so he's got the ammo now... I'm not really for or against anything specific I don't know what to do I just know something needs to be done. Hearing about 20 young children being murdered is to much to take. I'm really sad today thinking about what has happened. If there was anything I could do I would do it!

Larry

I fear that you might be right, Larry. I think that we will remember this day not only for being a tragedy, but also the beginning of what is to come. What's coming is going to be really bad for all of us. I suggest that everyone do some deep soul searching and figure out just how much you love your freedom. It is important to give your brain a road map to follow so that when we are faced with tough decisions, we make the decision that is consistant with our beliefs and values.

graystone
12-15-2012, 08:13 AM
I blame our society and our Goverment! We have allowed criminals every right in the world! Victims have no rights! Kids control most parents! When I was a kid the parent controlled the kid! Most teachers cant paddle now. When I was in school I have seen coaches lift football players off the ground when they were paddled! This tought respect! If we have no or can't teach respect how can it be gained? Every morning over the PA we said a prayer. God had been taken out of schools. How can he protect if he's not allowed in? People do you not see a pattern here? We have to get this country back to the basics!!!! We need to punish people by public stonings and hangings and firing squads! Right now we give them every right, 3 hot meals a day, tv's, gym, WE AMERICANS TAKE CARE OF THEM!!! I could go on all day, You know this, I know this, and our world know's this. Only thing that makes me feel good is heaven gained many new angels yesterday in heaven and oh how beautiful it must be! Shane and it's please get God back within your heart!

kpolley
12-15-2012, 08:31 AM
Just a couple things to note here...

1. The killer in CT, according to the latest news reports, only used pistols in his killing spree. He had a semi automatic rifle, but authorities say he left it in the car.

2. The guns he used were stolen from his mother, whom he killed before he went to the school.

3. There were over 32,000 deaths in the us last year as a result of motor vehicles. When are we going to pass stricter "car laws"?

If the logic behind gun control laws was sound, there wouldn't have been a killing in CT in the first place because murder is already illegal. Drugs are illegal and we have an astronomical amount of people using them every day. Alcohol was illegal during prohibition and it didn't stop people from drinking.

Stats show that stricter gun control laws don't lower crime rates at all. Illinois, the last state in the union (until recently) to refuse to allow conceal and carry had the 7th highest homicide rate of the 50 states based on population percentage. Chicago, which has an all out ban on handguns and this year the story was that more people were killed in Chicago than in Afghanistan over the same period of time. Gun control laws only work on those already concerned with following laws.

There will always be guns out on the streets. The question is, will the citizens have them or only the criminals?

Jim Warfield
12-15-2012, 11:48 AM
Too quick and easy, but then everything in our modern society is supposed to be that way, quick and easy, no fuss, no muss, stand back far enough and no blood will splatter upon you.
Other weapons (except poison) involves much closer ranges and more physical "work" to knife, bludgeon someone, which may then go on to warn others what you just did or want to do to them.
"He's covered in BLOOD! RUN!!"
I wonder if he had to find a key and unlock those guns?

Badger
12-15-2012, 04:24 PM
One more thing to ponder. Kennesaw, Ga has an ordinance that REQUIRES each household to own a gun. You never hear about crime in this town for some reason...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/04/18/us-usa-crime-shooting-town-idUSN1719257620070418

HauntedPaws
12-15-2012, 04:51 PM
Now it's know he killed the kids & teachers 3-11 shots each with a semi/automatic rifle. The teachers motherly instincts kicked in and they stuffed kids into closets and bathrooms. Women don't need to be taught how to protect children it's engrained in them. What would have helped is if schools had panic buttons like banks do. Here banks are protecting worthless money but get instant police action while schools have a town's most precious commodity yet have to dial 911. Had the office been able to push a button and get instant police presence this thread might not even exist.

As for gun rules and ownership if someone wants to get you, you're under the assumption an a big one at that, that you can get them before they get you. Case and point the Colorado incident the attacker was in full ballistics lvl 2 body armor I believe. You probably wouldn't have stood a very good chance against someone as heavily armed and armored as that with your pistol.

Mike Goff
12-15-2012, 04:53 PM
14458


Shane hit the bullseye with his last post. Our decaying culture is the single most significant factor. I have quite a bit of evidence in my research to prove this point, but I am tired. Not only has violent movies and video games stripped young people of their empathy, they have also made them more efficient killers. No I am not saying to ban video games, but I do have a solution for another time.

HauntedPaws
12-15-2012, 05:00 PM
How about text messaging and facebook allowing kids to hide behind the internet as bullies? It also is making them anti-social and not teaching them social skills. When I was in school if a bully came at you and got his ass whooped he wasn't a bully any longer. My oh my was that fun to see.

Dreamreaper
12-15-2012, 05:32 PM
He would have found a way to do this. Outlawing guns is like outlawing drugs, the bad people who don't obey the law's will still have them.

Dreamreaper
12-15-2012, 05:49 PM
Yes but again.....it comes down to those who will abide by the law....and those who do not. Sure guns laws work great for those that will abide by them - it has been proven time and time again people who are intent on killing others will find a way to do it, knives, bombs, hell even recently a bow was used......I didn't see anything about controlling bow usage.

No one knows how to stop these things - laws may curb a few incidents but if someone is set on destroying other peoples lives they will find a way.
Well said.

Pumpkin King
12-15-2012, 06:08 PM
Shane hit the bullseye with his last post. Our decaying culture is the single most significant factor. I have quite a bit of evidence in my research to prove this point, but I am tired. Not only has violent movies and video games stripped young people of their empathy, they have also made them more efficient killers.

To an extent then, are we at all to blame? As an industry it's our job to find new and creative ways to depict death and illicit fear, and I think it certainly could play a role in desensitizing the population.

Of course, I would never in a million years argue for censorship. The first ammendment is the only one that I like more than the second, but if we aren't going to sensor what we create then we need another solution, which I think needs to be common respect and courtesy and a return to the simple idea of caring for one another.

Mike, I'm with you 100% on this one, and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Mike Goff
12-15-2012, 07:41 PM
To an extent then, are we at all to blame? As an industry it's our job to find new and creative ways to depict death and illicit fear, and I think it certainly could play a role in desensitizing the population.

Of course, I would never in a million years argue for censorship. The first ammendment is the only one that I like more than the second, but if we aren't going to sensor what we create then we need another solution, which I think needs to be common respect and courtesy and a return to the simple idea of caring for one another.

Mike, I'm with you 100% on this one, and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

You have brought up a question that has been on my mind since the first year that I started haunting. I have struggled with the idea of promoting the darker side of entertainment, and any conflict that might be present with my own faith and my own sense of morality. This is a question that each of us must answer on an individual basis. I would never criticize somone for the path that they have taken, but I have set my own boundries that I will never cross. I would like to think that the majority of us set these types of guidlines. I have actually tried to have an impact on young people within our community, and I start by having a positive influence on the kids that work for me. My community has a pretty good idea of where our boundries are, and I like it that way. We also make very strong recommendations for how young is too young. While it is true that the creaters of entertainment do share a certain amount of blame for the decay of our society, the ultimate responsability falls in the lap of the parents.

Making people become better parents is a pretty tall order; The fact is no one can make anyone do anything. It is possible to make somone wish that they had done something, but that is the extent of control that someone can have over another. We cannot make people restrict the content of their childrens entertainment, but if thier child commits a heinous crime as a result of exposure to violent entertainment, I believe that a prosecutor could make a pretty strong case to 12 reasonable people that the parents contributed to the childs lack of empathy and ultimately the crime itself. The problem is that prosecutors are overburdened (by design IMHO) and many are lazy. This is where the public comes in. Public opinion has done a great job of curtailing everything from parents hosting underage drinking, to smoking, to drinking and driving and even drugs to some extent.

As it is now, if someone leaves a firearm accessable to an unauthorized user, and they commit a crime, or even if they have an accident, the firearm owner can be and usually is held criminally and civilly liable. The amount of liabilty is contigent on the accessability. (for the record, I support this 100%, If you are going to own a gun, you are responsable for it) Why then is it so unreasonable to hold the parents liable if they are grooming a sociopath? It would probably take a decade for such an effort to be effective and it should start with education, but it is completely doable. It would never eliminate mental illness, which is another problem (that I believe is contributed by many of the poisons that people are subjected too, but I will try to stay focused.) It won't put an end to violence, but it stands a good chance of putting us on the same level as the rest of the civilized world. In the meantime, we should not infrige peoples God given right of self defense as defined by the 2nd ammendment of the Constitution.

Mike Goff
12-15-2012, 08:32 PM
I thought that I would share this article about the shooting in Conneticut. It is written by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. He is without question the foremost expert on the subject of active shooter scenarios. He has the best answers to the problem that are currently available. I have attended seminars that he has given and his knowledge and expertise are second to none. Anyone interested in self defense should watch every youtube video that he has ever uploaded.

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

tonguesandwich
12-15-2012, 11:16 PM
Well said:
TURN OFF THE NEWS.......

Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

mindtumor
12-16-2012, 08:03 AM
I have three young children, two of which are in school and when I read this Friday all I could think about the rest of the day was how horrible this was. I spend the majority of each day fearing for the lives of my children already and reading stuff like this just worsens that.

graystone
12-16-2012, 08:13 AM
Couple of points.......
1..... EVERYONE should have a gun for protection... NO ONE needs the same guns our military has however!

2..... We have got to get God back in our public places! We HAVE allowed God to be taken from EVERYTHING! Mostly due to atheists! If you don't believe fine!!! just allow the one's who do their faith! I think we need a few more examples like Madalyn Murray O'Hair! Do you know that in 8 countries you are put to death for saying your an Atheists!!! Their crime rates almost don't exists! Something we should look at!

3..... We got to get RESPECT back! Now if a parent tears a kids ass up as it is today the parent can face jail time! If that were so when I was a kid my Dad would have got life! Getting a good ass whipping when I did wrong made me the person I am today. It tought me respect, it tought me right from wrong! It tought me when I do wrong I will BE PUNISHED! I learned, I got it! We don't have respect! We send our kids to their room with cellphones, tv, computers, ipads! Oh don't forget the violent video games! There is no punishment in the world! If our kids don't learn true and hurtful punishment then the really have nothing to be scared of now do they?

4..... Amen keep this shit off the TV I seen where CNN gave it a name like a damn movie... The Shady Hook Massacre!!!! Urban Dictionary says..... Massacure....A slaughtering of large numbers to rid them from the earth!!!!! OMG REALLY!!!! The media makes these things into ratings!!! This is not a horror movie preview people! It's lives lost due to the way our nation is ran!

5..... Start setting examples. Right now at worst they get life in prison. I remember here in Alabama they took away the electric chair out because " it was cruel and unusual punishment". WHT? let the SOB'S suffer!!!! Let them die a slow and painful death! Let their last breath remind them of what they did!!! PEOPLE, AMERICA WAKE THE HELL UP! WE AS A NATION ARE ALLOWING THIS WE HAVE TO BAN TOGETHER AND GET OUR NATION BACK TO THE BASICS!!

6.... We have, have, have to start making changes. A few people can't! Sadly I see time and time again issues brought up during times like this only to forget about them when the victims are buried. Please we NEED CHANGE AND NEED IT NOW!!!! Shane and it's sad, hurt and disgusted!

lurker
12-16-2012, 09:06 AM
"We have got to get God back in our public places! We HAVE allowed God to be taken from EVERYTHING! Mostly due to atheists! If you don't believe fine!!! just allow the one's who do their faith! I think we need a few more examples like Madalyn Murray O'Hair! Do you know that in 8 countries you are put to death for saying your an Atheists!!! Their crime rates almost don't exists! Something we should look at!"
Shane, I think you need to go back to Sunday school yourself, cause I think you may have missed a few key points.
It always cracks me up when I hear people say that we need to get god back in our schools and our hearts, and then talk about killing atheist and making others suffer. Yes, I do believe Jesus preached about the benefits of killing the non believers and torturing the the wrong-doers. Yes, yes, that is straight from the Gospel of Horse Cookies! lol
I believe Jesus taught love and forgiveness. Maybe if we all practiced that rather than looking to blame and punish perhaps that would go a long way in putting god back in people's hearts. If you can justify killing in the name of a god of love, then what horrors can't be justified.

God, guns, nor Super-man can protect against CRAZY. If someone wants to kill a lot of people, and they are willing to sacrifice their life to do it, there is little that can stop them. We would be better off to examine why CRAZY manifests itself in spree killing.

Mike Goff
12-16-2012, 09:09 AM
[QUOTE=graystone;144480]Couple of points.......
1..... EVERYONE should have a gun for protection... NO ONE needs the same guns our military has however!

I respectfully disagree with the first part of this statement. I don't believe that everyone should have a gun, or that everyone should have a drivers liscence, or that everyone should have kids. The difficult dilemna that we will always be faced with is who makes this determination and what are the qualifying factors.

The second part of this statement is the one that really needs to be settled. Please explain why you believe this to be true. If it is a matter of law, I would argue that the men who wrote and signed the Constitution used their rifles, muskets, and cannon to kill the British. They abolished the government that was oppressing them. One of the most significant acts that triggered the War for Independance was when the British attempted to confiscate arms, shot, and cannon. It was at this point in time that the colonists were pushed into a position that it was now or never. Had they let the British confiscate their weapons they would have surrendered any meaningful chance to resist the tyrranny of King George.
As I stated in a previous post, even the supreme court ruled that the second ammendment was written so that we may keep an oppressive government in check. It was obvious to them, that in order to be successful at keeping the government in check The People and the government had to be on equal footing. If they are not on equal footing, the consent of the governed could be, and as history clearly shows, would be given while under duress.

If your position is not based on law, which it clearly cannot be, because the law has been undeniably clear, then what makes you think that people do not need the same guns as our military? Americans have become incredibly soft. Most never make the connection that our freedom was fought for. News flash for everyone here. The troops that are fighting in Iraq and Afganistan are not fighting for our freedom. A person could make a case that they are fighting for the freedom of the Iraqis or the Afgans, but they are not fighting for our freedom. The more informed and cynical among us would probably say that they are fighting for the Central Banks, or the Petro dollar or oil companies, or even the miitary industrial complex. Fighting for our freedom means resisting the people that are trying to take it away. That could mean many different things. It could be as subtle as me typing away on this forum stating the case for why my guns should never be taken away. Or it could be a farmer making a last stand to keep his ground from being takin away by the EPA. It may someday be the only option we have left to protect ourselves from an ever intruding, ever corupted police state. Americans have become soft, and they say that it will never happen, because they are in denial. They are in denial because most of them dont' have the will or the means to resist a mugger, let alone a government gone wild. History tells the same story over and over. It is a cycle that never ends.

1. The age of outburst (or pioneers).

2. The age of conquests.

3. The age of commerce.

4. The age of affluence.

5. The age of intellect.

6. The age of decadence.

7. The age of decline and collapse.

Where do you think that America is as it pertains to this cycle? What will you do to protect your family when collapse knocks on the door of America? What will you do if the same government that voted for a bill (the NDAA) that gives them the right to arrest, indefinately detain, torture, and kill American citizens without trial, due process, or without the family members even knowing about it comes knocking at your door? I am curious as to why DHS ordered 450 million rounds of 40 s&W hollow point rounds. It cant be for a war, because hollow points are banned by the Geneva convention, and NATO countries don't use 40 S&W, they use 9mm. Why do you people trust this government so much that you would let them have more powerful guns than you do? The oath of service that I took prevents me from surrendering my "assault rifle" Anyone who wants it, will have to take it. Who will that be? Who wants to be first? There are a lot of people in this country who say that they should be taken away, I would highly encourage all of these people stop talking about it, and go volunteer to be the guy that kicks in the door and takes them.

austind
12-16-2012, 09:33 AM
Thanks mike you summed up a lot of my thoughts. I think we need parenting classes for those who let there kids become detached from society and make up excuses for there actions. My son is well aware of the value of a life, a code, and honor. He was brought up with the understanding that the freedoms that have we're paid for by real people not video games. The schools now don't have any power to do anything about problems like this due to the fact that we have to be politically correct. When my son got in trouble at school he did not fear what the school would do, he feared what his mom and football coach would do. You take away things like cell phones, cleaning toilets, or a 10 mile run just once and they get a clue of what is the cost of there auctions. I raised my son to be a man not a over protected kid that doesn't have the life skill to cope with life. Sorry I was just meaning to say thanks and ended up rambling. GOD BLESS AMERICAN.


Phatman

Mike Goff
12-16-2012, 09:53 AM
I'm trying very hard not to chastise the sheep too harshly. I do not fault anyone for being a sheep, nor do I think myself to be morally superior because I am not a sheep. We all have our place. I am trying to make the point that the sheep need not fear the sheep dogs. The sheep dogs are the only thing that keep the wolves from getting them.

Allow me to quote Jeff Cooper “The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”

mandible
12-16-2012, 09:54 AM
Hey, everyone. I'm a teacher in a public school for adolescents with behavior problems. Here are a couple of thoughts from reading this thread:

1. Teachers are actually trained to respond to school shooters. We all know where in our classrooms that our students can fit and be out of the sight line of the door. We practice lockdown drills regularly (like how we've always practiced fire drills... just not as often).

2. I think this is more a problem of mental health care access than of gun control. I have seen (more times than I care to remember) students and their families who NEED mental health care but either can not afford it or are too stigmatized by the notion of "being crazy" to seek help.

This: http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

3. Someone mentioned respect. This. This is it. We, as teachers, are not respected by our students, their parents, our administrators, and sometimes even by each other. I am very fortunate. I received a LOT of behavioral training in the process of earning my teaching degree. Most teachers are not required to take any classroom management courses. Most new teachers are thrown into the deep end with disrespectful students and no training on how to handle it. Students act up, the parents threaten to sue, and administration punishes the teacher.

4. I don't want to carry a gun in my classroom. I DO want metal detectors so that fewer guns and knives make their way into my school in the students' hands. Do you know how often weapons come to school? You'd be shocked, I think.

5. About training teachers to shoot/ defend themselves... it's a fair idea. One question: when? To save money, all of our professional development days have been cut. We don't get the training we used to get- those days in the summer for new reading programs, the changes to the curriculum standards that we HAVE to implement... we don't get those training days anymore. We already give up our nights and weekends to meet with parents, grade papers, write lessons, chaperone dances, go to the kids' football games and ballet recitals... We do that because our actual school days are so crammed with pretests, post tests, test taking skills, testing requirements, and actually administering the tests that we don't get much time to teach anymore. All that matters is test scores. And we have to raise those test scores in 10 fewer school days this year because the state school board cut our funding again.

6. Along those lines, we don't have the opportunity to teach social skills anymore. There's no time. And, if we tried, one kid would hurt another's feelings, the parents would complain, and we'd be fired.

I could rant forever. It's a frustrating time of year and we're all reeling from the events in Connecticut.

Thank you for being haunters. Thank you for giving my students a place where they can go and have some safe fun with their friends. Thank you for scaring them so that they learn how to handle fear in a safe environment. Thank you for activating their imaginations. Thank you for bringing some magic into their all-to-real lives.

Thank you.

graystone
12-16-2012, 10:08 AM
Cookies, Cakes, Pies My thoughts and beliefs are solid. My points are very true. Whether you believe in God or not what I said is 100% true. I said we need to get back to the basics! Respect your fellow man, Believe in God Our Savior, teach our kids right from wrong. If you don't believe then just look at my statement as my opinion and instead of trying to change my thoughts or correct it. I mean after all I am a Christian and until our ever so touchy Goverment takes away my own personal beliefs I still have a right to say as I feel. Again countries that still allows God and does not take him out because some monkey believer don't like it has way less crime ect. It's not my opinion its a stated fact. My point and post also related to punishing the " trouble makers" for a better use of the word. Shane and it's NO ONE WILL EVER TAKE MY GOD FROM ME.

Also I don't want to turn this thread topic into a religous debate. The point here is our goverment and society allow things like this to happen. Yes even with God things like this will happen but given much stricter punishment ect I assure you it would be much rarer!

lurker
12-16-2012, 10:17 AM
No one is trying to take your god from you, but I was taught that Christians believed in forgiveness and love. You are talking about killing people for being atheist. I'm sorry sir, but you miss the mark on being a Christian. You are trying to take away the rights of others in name of protecting your own.

Deathwing
12-16-2012, 04:05 PM
I think that the security business is the wave of the future. Schools will start hiring more security, as will most public places. It's like living in Israel but instead of terrorists it's dorky gamers who didn't get enough hugs as a kid killing people.

Jake

graystone
12-16-2012, 06:51 PM
At the end of the day this is just sad! I as a believer in God and Heaven I do find comfort knowing all the beautiful angels that arrived in Heaven on Friday. I can honestly say myself I am not afraid to die because I do know there is something far more better than this! Shane and it's can't wait to see the streets of gold!

austind
12-16-2012, 08:27 PM
Amen Shane. I have already died once and they brought me back. It must not have been my time but when it does come I will be happy with the life I have had. And hope that I go up and not down, it might be a coin toss right now.


Patman

Scary Harry
12-16-2012, 08:32 PM
Amen Shane

Jim Warfield
12-16-2012, 08:57 PM
.. is a warm gun.. unless it's being pointed at YOU! And it's warm because it just killed a few other people.
June 11th, 1940 Florence,31yrs old a woman who grew up in my house and whose Parents owned my house at that time, and lived here, was killed by her Husband, Glen 32 yrs old, just four blocks away straight due South on Carroll St. from my front door.
He also killed his own Son, Glen Jr.- 13 and his own Daughter, Beatrice, 12 and the Family's dog...
He shot them all.
I try to imagine , my Father ever pointing a gun at me, with the intent to kill me...it is THE most impossible thing for me to do.
I can't begin to imagine anyone doing such an evil and thoughtless thing to their own.
But it did happen. their graves are 500 feet from my front door too, to the West in the city graveyard all next to one another.
Whenever I talk about this crime I get very emotional about it over half of the time.. it was just... So Wrong!
Wrongful death may not be the final dealings one has on this Earth though. For these last two years , sometimes a GPS will guide my first time patrons the wrong way and they are dropped off at the 1940 murder location. The garage is gone, the house is still there. He killed them in the garage.
"She" might still he HERE, in my house, that is what a psychic said as she went passed him and out of the house 11 yrs. ago.
Her Red hair gave her away.
He saw her as a young girl again.

wickedfarmer
12-16-2012, 10:59 PM
Lets not forget that the constitution and the right to bear arms was written at a time when Americans were worried about the Red Coats breaking down their door, it was war with the British and a gun was necessary. Also back them people still shot their own food for survival. Nowadays we have a place to get food, it's called a grocery store. This idiot had mental problems but he still managed to get guns, we need tighter laws for sure to endure this doesn't happen again.


DA

But you did miss this bit...so I'll chime in. Dark; the right to bear arms (2nd amendment) was written several years AFTER The American Revolution. Not during heat of the moment. Our Forefathers wrote this not out of haste but with lessons learned through out European history. It is scary how on target and correct Mike is about intention of it being that the citizens would be able to say in effect 'bullshit" to the gov. at any time they needed to. If you were to read personal papers of the original signers it can be nothing but very clear their thought was to preserve citizens capacity to resist the gov and any standing army. I know it sounds crazy and hard to fathom; but there it is in black and white for anyone to read if they did honest research. The thought of such a thing coming to reality is mindboggling....but there it is.

The recent movie theatre shooting....that guy CHOSE the theatre farther away from his apartment for a reason. it was the only one in the area that exercised the part of the concealed carry law there that they could exempt their "private property" from the law and post 'no guns allowed". The other theatres showing batman that night did not post "gun free zone" or similar. These lunatics fear resistance of an armed person....but no fear of sitting ducks. The recent mall shooting the other day- that shooter saw another guy pull out his concealed carry pistol and aim it. Couldn't get a clear shot and didn't fire. But the loonie backed off and shot himself. The bit that Mike talks about that these loonies fold at first resistance has been crazily true. This recent school shooting...the guy shot himself as soon as he heard police....BEFORE they could even engage him.

Mike I might have to take your CCW class this winter. I carried this fall when we had the loonie shooting people on the two highways I am at intersection of...BUT it was on MY PROPERTY. I want to be able to carry elsewhere.

Wicked Farmer

Tater
12-16-2012, 11:50 PM
Just saw where that SCUM SUCKING asshats at Westboro Bapist church promised to protest at Sandy Hook. Seems that finally people on the internet and Hackers have decided to fight back.

Really good article about it below

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57559468-93/hackers-target-westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/

Deathwing
12-17-2012, 05:48 AM
It sounds like the Anonymous group has been watching too much Angels and Demons and take themselves way too seriously their quote sounds like the letter written by the fictional Illuminati

"We will not allow you to corrupt the minds of America with your seeds of hatred. We will not allow you to inspire aggression to the social factions which you deem inferior. We will render you obsolete. We will destroy you. We are coming."

But these Westboro baptist people are idiots just liking for attention, and through their extremism has managed to be successful at getting it.

Jake

graystone
12-17-2012, 06:52 AM
All Christians know this is not a church! They are a cult! They are media attention whores who jumps when tragedy strikes! This is how they get attention. Just as these tragedys must stop so should groups like this. I have seen these members on TV time and time again and they are a ticking time bomb! Their church is in a residential area at the end of the street with a 8 foot wood fence around it. God's christians DO NOT NEED TO HAVE A FENCE AROUND HIS HOME EVERYONE IS WELCOME! This is proof they are a cult! I could go on and on and just get madder! I say arrest them and beat them on sight let them know we are tired of them! Shane and it's they are a sad, sick group of people!

Tater
12-17-2012, 06:56 AM
Below was left as a comment on the link I posted, thought you guys would come up with something clever to do with the names and numbers
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm putting the info straight from Anonymous twitter on here and Hope everyone will post and re-post this. Lets all tell them what we think about them!!

**Re-Post**

Time to divulge some background information on Westboro Baptist Church. I'll give you some of their personal information first.

Physical Address:

Westboro Baptist Church
3701 SW 12th St
Topeka, KS 66604

(785) 273-0325 – Fred W. Phelps Sr., cell phone (785) 272-4135

Fred Phelps, Jr. (785) 273-0529

Benjamin Phelps (785) 273-0277 & (785) 273-1080

Shirley Roper (785) 272-8559

Charles Hockenbarger (785) 232-2485

Fax for Charles Hockenbarger (785) 233-4162

Phelps Family Law Office (785) 233-0766

Fax for Phelps Family Law Office (785) 969-9017

MarkSchaefer
12-17-2012, 07:33 AM
It's human nature to do something ANYTHING in times of trouble rather its the right or wrong thing to do!

wickedfarmer
12-17-2012, 07:33 AM
If they got a million calls saying 'Jesus loves you, but everyone else thinks you are an asshole" that would be a good start.

Howie Slobber Erlich
12-17-2012, 08:31 AM
I own guns and have a CCW and have for 13 years. I carry my gun every place that it is legal for me to carry it. I have never shot anyone. My gun has never jumped out of my holster and shot someone on it's own. Guns purchased legally by a person who has passed background checks are not the problem. Most gun killings are done with stolen guns that were obtained illegally.

Responsible gun owners keep their weapons locked up when not carrying so that they cannot get stolen. If anything in the law should change it should be charging irresponsible gun owners who do not properly secure their weapons so they cannot be stolen.

If your daughter or wife were in a store that was being robbed by an armed assailant, wouldn't you want me standing there with my gun on my hip? Wouldn't you want me to shoot the robber before he shoots your loved one? Because I would. If there was an opportunity to shoot him without harming anyone else, I would risk my life to save other people who I do not even know who are being threatened.

If every law biding citizen who is able to purchase a gun did so and were carrying at all times, and the criminal knows that, there would be a lot less crimes in this country. The criminals would be highly outnumbered and may think twice before committing that crime.

My suggestion is every law biding citizen purchase a gun that you are comfortable with and then get training. Get on the shooting range as much as possible to become as proficient as possible. Protect yourself and the others around you! If you don't protect yourself who will? The police cannot help until after the crime has been committed. You can prevent the crime in the first place. It's up to us to protect ourselves and that's what we need to do!

Mike Goff
12-17-2012, 08:34 AM
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/video-should-every-american-be-able-to-own-a-tactical-rifle/

This video is very entertaining, and offers a perspective that is no longer available in school. In fact this point of view which used to be mainstream is not available anywhere in the mainstream. for public consumption. That might be, because it does not fit into the political agenda of those in charge.

Mike Goff
12-17-2012, 08:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCTnRlUE1SM

This is an amazing woman with extraoridinary courage and common sense. She is a fine example of a Sheep dog.

Darksidestew
12-17-2012, 08:52 AM
She's Brilliant!

Stew

Howie Slobber Erlich
12-17-2012, 08:54 AM
Great video Mike!

Mike Goff
12-17-2012, 10:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w

We show this video to our students while they eat their lunch. We do so to make the point that owning a gun does not make you armed anymore than owning a guitar makes you a musician. It really drives home the point that it is important to give your brain a roadmap to follow, so that when adrenaline kicks in, and when the heartbeat excedes 110 beats per minute, when your visual perception is limited to tunnel vision, and when all fine motor skills are gone, you can survive, if you have trained your body and mind to recognize this phenomenon.

I'm posting it here, because there are those among us who don't believe that this man has a right to defend himself, or maybe it is that they believe that if guns were made illigal, these gangbangers would stop using guns to commit crimes. Meanwhile the incredibly nieve, and completely unqualified among us, seem to think that they have the right to vote our means and ability for self defense away. Those of us who are sheepdogs must educate the sheep that once we are removed, the wolves can and will do whatever they please.

Mike Goff
12-17-2012, 01:00 PM
It is my hope that this discussion has caused people to really think about this subject and to pursue the truth, politics be damned. Much of the information presented here can save lives. I realize that there are many who just can't be persuaded with facts and that they have already made up their mind. For those with an open mind and for those who would like to learn more, I would encourage you to do so. The greatest tactition in the history of the world was probably Sun Tzu. According to him, it is necessary to know thy enemy, and know thyself. For those who cannot get past their hatred for guns, I would recommend that you get some formal training. I'm not asking you to stop hating guns, I am telling you to obtain intimate knowledge of how the other half thinks. If I were a betting man, this experience would convert your way of thinking. If it does not, at least you might be able to make a sound argument for your position the next time you encounter a gun nut like myself. I doubt it, because my study has been one of truth rather than ideology, but you never know.

For those who are starting to see the value of arming ones self, allow me to caution you about what is coming. Absolute gun control is highly unlikely in one step. What will probably take place is a registration (which also undermines the intent of the 2nd ammenment) A registration would do absolutely nothing to prevent acts of violence with a gun, and only the law abiding citizens would register them in the first place. Remember, it is already illegal for a felon to own a gun.

Registration is a prerequisite for confiscation. They must know who has guns before they could take them.
Confiscation is a prerequisite for genocide. Most people will not allow themselves to be slaughtered without a fight. I know this sounds crazy. I am a person who is only interested in fact, and cares nothing for speculation or theory, lets take a look at history and see what has already happend concerning this matter.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were armed.

austind
12-17-2012, 03:18 PM
Mike I just hope that we in this country drop the politics and deal with this as adults. I am not for more gun control but I would like the back ground checks and controls that we do have enforced. We need people to Learn what gun ownership means and the responsibility that comes with that. I would not let my son or wife have a gun due to the fact that they are not trained in the safe keeping of a gun and I don't want me to be the one shot. I grew up with guns and I have never pointed a gun at another person just kidding around. That is why we need people to respect the the way you handle and secure a gun. I loved the video and think that we will always have sickos and they will always fine ways to achieve there goal with or without guns.


Phatman

Mike Goff
12-17-2012, 03:49 PM
Mike I just hope that we in this country drop the politics and deal with this as adults. I am not for more gun control but I would like the back ground checks and controls that we do have enforced. We need people to Learn what gun ownership means and the responsibility that comes with that. I would not let my son or wife have a gun due to the fact that they are not trained in the safe keeping of a gun and I don't want me to be the one shot. I grew up with guns and I have never pointed a gun at another person just kidding around. That is why we need people to respect the the way you handle and secure a gun. I loved the video and think that we will always have sickos and they will always fine ways to achieve there goal with or without guns.


Phatman

I have been heavily involved in the gun community all of my life. I know dozens of FFL dealers. They are so paranoid about not dotting an i or crossing a t, that I can say with a great deal of certainty that you have nothing to worry about with background checks. The anti-gun crowd would not miss an opportunity to expose a gun dealer that sold a gun to someone who was not supposed to have them. I have never heard of this happening where I live. In fact the only case that I know of where guns were illegally transferred was the case of "Fast and Furious". Look that one up if you want to get mad about something. I agree with you about the politics, I think that both parties suck beyond recognition and you will never see me hitching my wagon to either. The political division in this country will be our undoing. It seems that the only thing that the two parties agree on, is corporate money and destroying the middle class. Anyone who owns a gun should get formal training, you would be surpised how much of a difference it will make. My 9 year old daughter is an expert with a rifle and could easily teach any adult gun safety. Someday she will be a sheepdog.

ihauntu
12-17-2012, 08:31 PM
Agree with everything you posted Mike!

Dreamreaper
12-17-2012, 08:41 PM
The biggest mass murder in America took place using box cutters on Sept 11. We should outlaw box cutters. Please ask your congressman to stop allowing the “over the counter” sale of box cutters. At the very least we should make everyone register their box cutters.

Darkangel
12-17-2012, 09:13 PM
I don't know if you should say the sept 11 incident was worst mass murderer they didn't use the box cutters to kill they used the plane. A true mass murder would be like a serial killer or like the Virginia tech murderer who killed 34 people by shooting them.

austind
12-17-2012, 09:33 PM
How about Jim jones in gyana killing 200 + by poison. Hitler millions by gas chamber. the device is not the issue, the mentality is. Look at the worst serial killers and they mostly did not use guns. And 9/11 was one of the top 10 life changing events of my life, so if that was not murder then I don't know what is. And mike I know most dealers do a great job but down in Texas the law is that if you are a private seller at a gun show selling less tha 3 guns they don't have to do any paper work. This is how most of the guns (long guns)get into Mexico.

Phatman

PS going to gun store tomorrow to buy another gun before I can't get it.

James Wilson
12-17-2012, 10:24 PM
To a point, I disagree that this is a gun control issue. There should be some type of mechanism in place to provide a psychiatric evaluation for people purchasing firearms. In essence, this would be a crazy people owning guns issue. As a former soldier, and having grown up with firearms in the house, I was taught from a young age that guns are not something to trifle with. We were taught that to point a toy gun at someone was cause for discipline. In my military career, you were to always be conscious of people around you, and the direction your weapon's muzzle was pointed. It was worth at least one rank to knowingly point a weapon at someone, if not incarceration.

If a person attempts to purchase ANY firearm, there should be a thorough background check and psychiatric evaluation. There should be an even more stringent check made on people attempting to purchase any type of military or assault rifle, or any pistol resembling law enforcement issue.

MarkSchaefer
12-17-2012, 10:50 PM
I highly doubt guns will be made completely illegal because of the 2nd amendment. However, over time the far left will be in pursuit of making it so difficult and expensive to own any it will be simply impossible for the average person. As Obama said about utility companies building new coal plants……..they can be built but they will go bankrupt doing so!

Mike Goff
12-18-2012, 07:05 AM
When someone who can legally purchase a gun does so for someone who cannot it is called a straw purchase. It doesn’t happen very often, but it does happen more than it should. In most cases it is a thug who convinces his girlfriend, wife, or “Ho” to do it. Most criminals aren’t that smart, the ones that are, usually choose politics over street crime. It doesn’t take long for them to get caught with the gun and they usually figure out where he got it and then both parties are prosecuted.
The media would like us to believe that the cartels in Mexico are armed by straw purchases in the United States. It does happen but the percentage of guns that make their way into the wrong hands by this means is equivalent to spitting in the ocean. I don’t have the exact numbers right now, but I will get them and post them for all to be shocked.
A huge portion of the guns come from Yemen. In the US a 2 tier (decent quality) semi-auto AK-47 will cost you between 500 and 800 bucks. In Yemen, a tier 1 (top of the line) AK-47 that is select fire (fully automatic) can be bought for under 50 bucks. Where do you think that they buy them, the US, or Yemen?
The grenades, RPG’s, rocket launchers, missiles, mini-guns, and Browning 50 caliber machine guns that CNN loves to show pictures of, were not bought at a Bass Pro shop and then smuggled across the border. In order to get your hands on this kind of hardware you have to have ties to some serious players in organized crime, either in the private or public sector.
Some of the more informed among us have probably heard of Fast and Furious. This was a BATF operation that allowed thousands of guns to be shipped into Mexico without any means of tracking. They were also bringing in Heroin and Cocaine back into the US on the return trip, more than likely to finance the operation.
If it were not for a whistle blower, we would know nothing about it. I wonder how many operations have been conducted that we don’t know about.
Now to the real problem, the US government ships tens of thousands of guns to Mexico every year. They ship them to the Mexican military and the Mexican police. Oddly many of these shipments come up missing. The Mexican government asks them for more guns and we ship them to them. Round and round we go. The US stopped releasing the number of guns that they shipped after 2010, but the numbers are available prior to this, and when I have time to look for them, I will post a link. We can only speculate as to the extent of the corruption. I am not saying that Obama did it. The truth is, he probably doesn’t even know about this stuff when it happens. He probably knows now and who knows if he cares? It might be some Mexican general who is getting rich off of these guns and the US government is too stupid to fix the problem. Maybe it’s bigger than that. I can only state the facts and provide the documentation to prove so.
I don’t believe that the Obama administration or the Bush administration cares, because if it were up to me, we would control what goes across the border and we would stop sending guns to other countries.

Mike Goff
12-18-2012, 07:26 AM
To a point, I disagree that this is a gun control issue. There should be some type of mechanism in place to provide a psychiatric evaluation for people purchasing firearms. In essence, this would be a crazy people owning guns issue. As a former soldier, and having grown up with firearms in the house, I was taught from a young age that guns are not something to trifle with. We were taught that to point a toy gun at someone was cause for discipline. In my military career, you were to always be conscious of people around you, and the direction your weapon's muzzle was pointed. It was worth at least one rank to knowingly point a weapon at someone, if not incarceration.

If a person attempts to purchase ANY firearm, there should be a thorough background check and psychiatric evaluation. There should be an even more stringent check made on people attempting to purchase any type of military or assault rifle, or any pistol resembling law enforcement issue.

I understand your point and to a certain degree I concur. The problem is, that I believe this can be abused, in fact it already has.
When I returned from the Gulf War in 1992 I was in the prime of life. I weighed 185 lb. and had a 26 " waste. Nine months later I was flat on my back. I weighed 120 lb. had chronic pain, and was rapidly losing the use of my legs. I spent the next few years going to the VA hospital trying to find answers to why I was so sick. Once I woke up to the fact that the people at the VA were not my friends I sought treatment in the private sector. Long story short... the private doctors found all kinds of chemical and biological agents in my body. Once I recieved proper treatment, proper nutrition and the proper amount of time to recover, I eventually did. The VA would not even admit that it was possible for me to be exposed to these things, therefore they would not run the proper tests to see what was wrong. They said that it was in my head. They diagnosed me with PTSD. I am considered by my peers to be and expert in the field of firearms, tactics and the mental dynamics of armed confrontation. I assure you that I don't have PTSD. PTSD is a one size fits all diagnoses that the VA uses to limit the DOD liability of a soldiers health. It will more than likely be used someday to limit a veterans right to bear arms. The number of veterans that are being diagnosed with PTSD is staggering. Some are legit, some are not. If the Schumer ever hits the fan in the United States who would pose the biggest threat to the powers that be? I think that it would be veterans.

wickedfarmer
12-18-2012, 09:29 AM
And when they actually act on taking in people under the new Natioanl Defense Authorization Act...and haul Mike away (A U.S. citizen) for a indeffinate amount of time and declare him not protected by Constitution and our other National documents without any reason need to be given....the s--- will really hit the fan. It is now official that the Fed has the power to do that. And what would cause something like this to be declared....a Federal registration of all guns .....turn to confiscation or similar as the baby steps keep coming. I'm the type who would say "bullshit" too loud after Mike is hauled away. But I am afraid there would be lots of brass involved.

Wicked Farmer

wickedfarmer
12-18-2012, 09:36 AM
Now that defiant streak would rear its head ONLY if the gov. actually did the unthinkable and overstepped its bounds on a large scale. I wonder if my great grand father many many generations before me knew that the Boston Massacre picture distributed amongst the colonies was a very gross and twisted depiction on British troops firng into civilian crowd; before he died in the American Revolution taking up arms against the British.

Wicked Farmer

Mike Goff
12-18-2012, 10:05 AM
As promised, here is a link to the information about the US legally shipping arms to Mexico.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u.s-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/

It is now time for me to move on, and focus on more pleasant things in my life. I will leave the debate to others. In closing I will say that it is every Americans responsibility to be informed. It is frustrating when an uninformed dumbass can cancel out my very informed vote. Even when the election is fraudulent, it's still pisses me off.

mrfoos
12-18-2012, 12:19 PM
Hey Mike,

Thanks for all your historic and educated perspective here. I was already firmly on your side of the debate but it was simply from my opinion that the best answer is always MORE freedom... not less. I feel a little more educated on the debate now.

And I'm sorry to hear your veteran story. I've heard it many times before. I'm sick of how this country as a whole elevates our cowardly and self-serving politicians to the status of hero and name our buildings, bridges and roads after them... and then treat our real heroes like this.

Ironically every time the gun control folks start talking gun, bullet, and license to conceal sells go through the roof. What they don't understand is they can't win this debate with votes... because WE'RE the ones with the guns and bullets.

Darkangel
12-18-2012, 03:13 PM
One more thing to ponder. Kennesaw, Ga has an ordinance that REQUIRES each household to own a gun. You never hear about crime in this town for some reason...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/04/18/us-usa-crime-shooting-town-idUSN1719257620070418

Out of curiosity, what is the demographic of the people in that area? That probably tells the true story. Don't hear of too much crime out of Salt Lake City either do you?

twinlocust
12-18-2012, 04:41 PM
Pre Clinton AWB, during Clinton AWB, After Clinton AWB there was no significant change in murder involving these weapons. Connecticut is among the five U.S states with the most strict gun laws, nearly identical to the standing federal laws in Canada. These laws did nothing to stop this crime.

The mentally ill and evil people will find a way to do bad things.

Attacking the weapon side of the equation in the U.S. is tantamount to pissing on a house fire.

Addressing the mental health side is reasonable and worthwhile.

Even addressing mental health as it relates to purchasing or possessing a weapon - lowering the bar on what
is mentally ill, may be reasonable.

The idea of banning weapons is for weak fools that know little about the way the world works.

Jim Warfield
12-18-2012, 06:43 PM
There was a massacre in Austrailia years ago and then that country bought-back rifles and other guns from owners (the video of the massive pile of guns being scrapped is incredible! $!$!$!$!?)
Maybe someone is just playing with numbers , but the number of gun related deaths since the massive buy-back there is almost "0", according to that program broadcast today.
The Newtown shooter had his own school psychiatrist assigned to him, which did no good at all, obviously.
His Mother was begining paperwork to have him commited, the school adult victims were some of her friends, as were the class of little kids he went after with such a vengence.
The AR15 was his weapon, he did break into the school....the information the first day or two was wrong so often, we just stopped listening for awhile.
Someone keeps saying the USA is the ONLY modern country with such a horrendous track record of gun violence, no it is not, search the internet, mass killings in Germany, Scotland (school children) Austraila , but the social situations do contribute greatly to the level of mistrust between the classes and ethinic types and I believe crowding people into a smaller area also affects this too.
Add unemployment and a scary unpredictable future for many who thought they had it all bought AND paid for and bad things seem to happen more often.
Giving psychological tests to new gun owner wanna-bees might help sometimes, but things in our lives do change, and we don't want that to happen sometimes, like marriages failing, businesses failing , create whole new situations which can render a previous psych. screening null and void, unfortunately.
I am 63, my generation grew up watching cowboy shoot-outs, which maybe spawned the computer shooter games with more and more realistic scenes before young eyes. Take a toy gun away from a boy, he quickly picks up a nearby stick and keeps right on "Shooting"!
When I was a kid this country was still on a "High" of weaponry from WW2, (Since we won)
Allowing movies and TV to babysit our kids is probably not a really good practice some have discovered when it comes to those times a good choices must be made in real life.
If only my Dad would have bought me a Sherman tank that day... there were 100s of them lined up neatly in a farm field waiting to be melted down into wire and nails just 35 miles from us. I would have liked to see that at work, I was told 5 Shermans would fit into the huge ladel at the same time! Melted via electricity!

Mike Goff
12-18-2012, 07:29 PM
I would not be able to sleep tonight if I did not pass this on. As I said, I have studied this type of thing for a long time, too long. Many times these things happen in spurts. This Friday is the end of the Mayan calendar. Don't even get me started, no the world will not end, but there are crazy people who think that it will. I have many reasons to believe that Friday is a bad day to let your kid go to school, I would rather not go off on a weird tangent. I sincerely hope that Friday night all of you are poking fun at me, and you probably will. I do not have any concrete evidence to support this concern, but I am concerned.

wickedfarmer
12-18-2012, 07:42 PM
...at you Mike. Hope we can breath a sigh of relief. News called me today as we did a mayan theme for the maze. He asked me what I was doing friday....so Wicked me strung him along. "I am headed to Yellowstone. The basin has been rising about a half inch every year beacuse of the magma rising under the worlds largest volcano. When the planets line up it will blow from increased pull from other planets. I want to be there to see it blow if we all die anyway." I let a few seconds of silence pass and told him i was kidding...but Yellowstone basin is rising but we probably have 10,000 years yet. Yeah there will be loonies out that day. Just hope they are noit destructive loonies.

Wicked Farmer

wickedfarmer
12-18-2012, 07:47 PM
When that basin blows good by North America as we know it. It is a fabulous place to visit and everyone should see it. But it will get ugly some day. Maybe 50 years ....maybe 10,000 years....but they now know it is going to blow.

Now back to topic at hand...

Wicked Farmer

drfrightner
12-19-2012, 01:57 AM
Here in St Louis at a school not far from my house supposedly this kid made threats to do the same thing... they sent home notes to all the parents. My friend is NOT sending his kid to school that day.

This is sad and terrible that we all have to fear for our kids safety at schools. I can say this doesn't really matter what side of gun control you are on at this point something is going to happen. It just sucks it took this to be the reason this happens. WOW I'm still devastated. I watched my favorite show on TV tonight the Voice and cheered on Nick and Pope and no matter what you do you keep thinking about it.

Larry

Dreamreaper
12-19-2012, 08:01 AM
I don't know if you should say the sept 11 incident was worst mass murderer they didn't use the box cutters to kill they used the plane. A true mass murder would be like a serial killer or like the Virginia tech murderer who killed 34 people by shooting them.

They obtained a plane by using the box cutters then used the plane to intentionally (pre-planed) kill thousands. They may have found other ways to get there final weapon but the box cutters were part of the whole plan to mass murder.

badass
12-19-2012, 09:45 AM
lets not give up one ounce of freedom .

Darkangel
12-19-2012, 10:06 AM
They obtained a plane by using the box cutters then used the plane to intentionally (pre-planed) kill thousands. They may have found other ways to get there final weapon but the box cutters were part of the whole plan to mass murder.

I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell some scrawny dudes with box cutters would be enough to hold me hostage. It's a like a quarter inch blade they have to be right in you to do anything you could knock him out just as easily. Still confuses me to this day but those passengers did end up being heroes.

DA

JamBam
12-19-2012, 11:58 AM
The best discussion on this issue I have ever been a part of is thanks to Mike Goff, a friend. The facts have been allowed to stack up with 361 school shootings since 1992 and this year three shootings, all with AR15's killed 86 people, 20 of which were 6 or 7 years old. The last straw has been pulled with the children's murders.

As parents, we all have had our view of the world changed. Joe Scarbarough on MSNBC Mornging Joe is a former Republican congressman from Florida. He opened his show with a pretty frank discussion and his announcement that he has changed his view and mentioned like many others that he had an "A" rating from the NRA. That is worth lots of campaign cash to politicians and gets loyalty for the gun issues.

Before anyone says the Democrats are after your guns needs to remember that the last "major" gun law passed by congress was in 1993, the Brady Bill. Two bills Obama signed this year allowed more freedom of guns regarding colleges and national parks. The line agreed not to cross and allow restrictions at this time is fully automatic guns, machine guns. No one even thinks rocket launchers and bigger weaponry should be owned by people. But that is what it might take to start to defend against our modern weaponry if our government turned against us. The NRA has changed the Supreme Court attitude toward the 2nd amemdment to what it is today that the second part of the amendment is more important then the first part. Before the 1970's, the court was ruling that the well regulated militia trumped the individual's right to bear arms. It continues to allow less than absolute rights to guns.

Do I think banning certain guns will stop the crazy people from killing more people? NO. Will restricting the assault type help, YES. Keep in mind that our first amendment to free speech has limitations as well. Restricted speech, like time and place stuff regarding parades and protests are accepted by society. Hate speech and speech to incite violence is restricted as well as yelling fire in a theatre. Unprotected speech (1) Defamation (see section on Defamation) (2) Incitement of illegal activity (3) Commercial speech – false and deceptive advertising is not protected by the First Amendment (4) Speech by government employees. That being said, restricting the assault weapons, certain bullets, and high capactiy clips are NOT steps to taking away the second amendment rights, merely working with it to accomplish the goal of reducing these killings. The restrictions for weapons needs to include further background checks for those wanting to own them. Closing the loopholes in background checks has been fought for years.

One area that is starting to get attention is the possibility that the medications used to day to treat many of these people may have violent side effects. I have seen a couple of websites that claim that 15 previous killers were all on one of these various meds. Might be something to look into. And if I have someone in my house that is on them, further restrictions need to be in place like secure gun storage at shooting ranges.

Another point that is gaining awareness is that 80% of stolen guns are never recovered. Getting gun owners to become more responsible and secure the guns needs to happen.

Mike makes the point that his daughter is well trained in firearms. That is the biggest idea I think needs to get traction. Train every person in America a standard firearms course and then require allyoung people 10-12 yrs old to get the same training.

MIke and I have talked about the disparity of CCP, Concealed Carry Permits, across America. It is time to standarize this and have reciprocity between states. Wisconsin last year passed a CCP law with training required and back off it before it became law. Every permit needs to be a finite time with renewal or expiration, additional training, and freedom on where to carry them. Yes having more people carrying guns may deter, but don't buy the whole story that more guns truly equals more safety because all you have to do is look at the Ft Hood shooting that wounded 29 and killed 13 at a military base where everyone has extensive training and weapons. Deter will help because these cowards nearly always pick areas that have unarmed people.

Nearly all the high schools I know have police on site these days and many junior highs. The cost of manning all schools with police, including K-4 like Sandy Hook, may not be feasible cost wise. Teachers being armed is being brought up and I saw one site that it was said that teachers 1st priority is to keep the kids safe and teach second. Sorry, the school corp and admin is charged with the safety, then the teachers have an obligation. But, training teachers better safety as pointed out by Mike's great article earlier in this thread will help. Now, having principals, vice principals, maintenence, and janitorial become deputized and being able to carry on duty is an idea worth considering.

We should not forget this needs to be addressed with open minds. Too many times we have let time pass until the next deadly mass killing. It took six years to pass the Brady Bill after it was first introduced. We cannot allow emotions to run us to a hasty solution, but there are people out there who do not deserve to die because of the inability of us, and our legislators, from finding some common ground on this.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 02:01 PM
From my experience the extent of gun safety that is taught to children is, "If you ever touch that gun, I'll beat your ass!" This approach is a monumental failure. Kids are naturally curious, and this approach will in most cases feed that curiosity. I have carefully taught my daughter these 4 basic steps.

1. Always treat every gun as if it were loaded, even when you know that it is not
2. Never point a gun at anything that you are not willing to kill, destroy, or pay for, even if you know that it is unloaded
3. Never put your finger in the trigger guard until you have obtained sight picture on your target and have made the conscious decision to shoot
4. Run away from anyone who does not strictly obey the first 3 rules

My daughter and I have an agreement. She can see, and handle her rifle and any of my guns anytime she likes. All she has to do is ask. This way any and all exposure that she has to guns is under my direct supervision. This gives me priceless time with her to reinforce gun safety. The consequenses for her ever breaking this agreement is that she looses her rifle forever. She will never get it back. My part of the agreement is that if I or my wife ever leave a gun where she could get to it, she is to not touch the gun, but to immediatly tell me. At that point in time, I will give her 20 dollars. I have placed redundancy in my plan to keep my daughter safe from guns. My wife and I both have a strict routine. There are 3 acceptable places for a gun, in the holster, in the safe, or in the hand. There are no excuses for breaking this rule. I have taught my daughter how to safely handle guns. I have instructed her not to handle them, if I am not there. And if I or my wife ever do the unthinkable and leave a gun where she can get it, she is faced with a choice, she can handle the gun that she has handled hundreds of times before, or she can collect 20 dollars and have the opportunity to impress her daddy with how much she knows about gun safety.

This agreement extends to when she is out of the house. If she is ever at a friends house and a gun is made available, she will be armed with the knowledge of rules 1 through 4 and will call me to collect 20 dollars. At that point in time I will immediately go get her, have a very sober conversation with the parents and then give her 20 dollars.

This statistic will vary depending on where you live, but nationally your child has a 50% chance of going to a house with a gun in it everytime they spend the night with a friend. Teach your children what I have outlined above, I don't care if you hate guns.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 02:21 PM
I thought that I would gently correct you Brett, before someone jumps all over you. As stupid as it seems troops are completley unarmed while on base. They stand the chance of being charged for possessing a single bullet. Eventually some group that hates Americans will figure that out and the mass killings on military bases will begin, hopefully we can educate people before that happens. There are few other things in your post that I have issue with, but what the hell, all in all you did pretty good. Some day I may even convert you to Libertarianism. Thanks for looking out!

mrfoos
12-19-2012, 02:22 PM
This statistic will vary depending on where you live, but nationally your child has a 50% chance of going to a house with a gun in it everytime they spend the night with a friend. Teach your children what I have outlined above, I don't care if you hate guns.

When I was around 10 I had a friend that my brother and I use to visit during the summer when all parents were at work. One time he took all the guns out of his dad's "locked" gun safe and wanted us to play cowboys and indians WITH the real guns. I kid you not. He would also bullet in hand pretend to put bullets in a pistol, spin it, and play russian roulette with himself and us. We of course didn't want to play. We ended up threatening to leave so he quit. I kept going over there AND I never told an adult. Craziness!

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 02:31 PM
When I was around 10 I had a friend that my brother and I use to visit during the summer when all parents were at work. One time he took all the guns out of his dad's "locked" gun safe and wanted us to play cowboys and indians WITH the real guns. I kid you not. He would also bullet in hand pretend to put bullets in a pistol, spin it, and play russian roulette with himself and us. We of course didn't want to play. We ended up threatening to leave so he quit. I kept going over there AND I never told an adult. Craziness!

The most dangerous people with guns are those who know nothing about guns. The most dangerous voters are the ones who know nothing about the Constitution.

wickedfarmer
12-19-2012, 02:54 PM
Mike already hit on one thing you talked about. I'm not going to jump all over you either. But I'll touch on your 2nd amend. and Supreme Court "changing" view. Funny how a lot of people (not saying you) like to brush off our founders as back woods hics and a few lawyers. They labored several years drafting these documents so they stood up to time. They knew arms would not stay the same they knew technology was changing. They even thought of such crazy things as sailing ships in the sky crossing tha Atlantic sometime. They were careful not to put "musket" for the word "arms". Think it was on here; but maybe facebook I posted they were scared of the gov. THEY were creating! And they intended if needed American Revolution II could not be squashed by a better armed standing army. Sure they new an army with cannon could defeat citizens with rifles IN A BATTLE....but not a war so long as citizens had "arms". And you do not need rocket launchers and so on even today. Disarm them...and all bets are off like Mike listed. Look at punctuation in wording of "2nd A." and read into personal writings of these men and I bet you a beer at Transworld you would decide that they indeed intended 2nd A. to be interpreted as Supreme Court did later.

Wicked Farmer

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 02:56 PM
BTW Brett there are many programs out there to teach kids gun safety. The NRA has a program called Eddie the Eagle. NRA instructors are required to do community projects like this in order to retain their teaching credentials. Besides that instructors believe in the programs and are happy to help out. The problem is, that few principles will allow this program in their schools because it is a hot button for some. Even though the program is free, and even though it is a proven life saver. Just another example of schools in denial. There is also the Appleseed program, that comes to most communities 3 or 4 times a year. This one is not free, but I guarentee that you will find an instructor that will gladly sponsor a child. I am not a big fan of the NRA, but they get this one right. For those who are curious, I think the NRA does not do enough to speak on our behalf, but they do love to call and ask me for money. Sorry... tangent

wickedfarmer
12-19-2012, 03:02 PM
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" & "The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" Thomas Jefferson

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 03:06 PM
First off the Supreme court is not the end all be all entity that everyone gives them credit for, the people are. It is only by the consent of the governed that our government is allowed to exist. Second of all the word regulated as it was defined in the 18th century means disciplined, the militia was a citizen militia. The founders were stating the obvious, we needed a well disciplined citizen militia. In fact the founders warned against large standing armies, which is what the US military is. It has been an interesting discussion, but it is really all academic. The bottom line is that if they want to take away the guns, they will have to do it by force. I think that many of you are going to be in for a huge surprise if they ban semi-autos. The American people are patient, sometimes too patient, but they do have their tipping point, and I believe that a semi-auto ban is it. For 25 years, I have been asking the question, what will be the tipping point? After 25 years, semi-auto weapons is my best guess.

wickedfarmer
12-19-2012, 03:10 PM
I have to say Fort Hood was more of an act of war than "crazy shooter" He was feeling he was betraying his homeland and God. Finally found where his loyalties laid and had too many targets around him where he felt he could atone for his sins to Allah by killing American warriors.

I.M.H.O.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 03:12 PM
Another interesting tidbit. Daniel Webster published the Websters dictionary so that slimey politicians could not change the meaning of the Constitution, by changing the meaning of words in the English language. I am in awe of the founders and thier knowledge of human nature. I am humbled when I repeat their words.

wickedfarmer
12-19-2012, 03:17 PM
On the part about Supreme Court and the people.

Tipping point...banning semi-autos. Maybe. It would start with a few "crazies" shooting at gov. entities. Them being hauled away...then slowly more and more saying "this is BULLSHIT" seeing gun owners overun. More and more skirmishes until complete chaos as by then rioting and looting take place since police are so busy. I was shocked it didn't start with confiscating weapons in New Orleans after hurricane.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 03:30 PM
On the part about Supreme Court and the people.

Tipping point...banning semi-autos. Maybe. It would start with a few "crazies" shooting at gov. entities. Them being hauled away...then slowly more and more saying "this is BULLSHIT" seeing gun owners overun. More and more skirmishes until complete chaos as by then rioting and looting take place since police are so busy. I was shocked it didn't start with confiscating weapons in New Orleans after hurricane.

I have thought the same thing about New Orleans. When I was at a seminar, I had a chance to talk to someone from there. According to him, there was mass resistance, and massive shootouts. I have never been able to verify this with anyone else, but it stands to reason that those who shot it out with the National guard or the police may not be alive to tell about it. What really makes things tricky is that there were so many police and National guard units from all over the country that it is difficult to verify anything. I do know that there was at least one National Guard unit that refused orders, but then I never heard anything else about it. What shocked me more than anything was the number of police and guardsmen that disreguarded their oath. That was deeply disappointing and I will not soon forget it. The corruption of the NOPD and the NYPD is something that should have made national news. Those guys should be in prison for some of the things that they did.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 03:32 PM
The cops didn't take away guns from Blackwater who was guarding the millionare mansions.

Twin Locusts
12-19-2012, 03:38 PM
From Mike : "First off the Supreme court is not the end all be all entity that everyone gives them credit for, the people are. It is only by the consent of the governed that our government is allowed to exist. Second of all the word regulated as it was defined in the 18th century means disciplined, the militia was a citizen militia. The founders were stating the obvious, we needed a well disciplined citizen militia."

Ditto - the few that understand the above statement are enough.

Also Mike, when you say semi-auto ban are you referring only to rifles? And, are you suggesting a law similar to the 90's AWB or are you including confiscation?
In a nutshell the only action taken by the government is the prohibition of the sale and manufacture of certain arms, I'm yet to hear rumblings of anything beyond that
and am interested in a source if you have.

You might like the article below. The Happy Valley Oregon Mall shooter faced a concealed carry holder who drew and obtained a sight picture - the shooter is dead, and it will be impossible to prove. However, the way the timing went down, the shooter shot himself right after he realized there was an armed individual drawing on him. He retreated
and shot himself. The concealed carry holder saw innocents directly behind the perpetrator and chose not to fire, the right thing to do.

Everyone that carries has thought through this situation and prayed they never have to make that decision.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 03:54 PM
From Mike : "First off the Supreme court is not the end all be all entity that everyone gives them credit for, the people are. It is only by the consent of the governed that our government is allowed to exist. Second of all the word regulated as it was defined in the 18th century means disciplined, the militia was a citizen militia. The founders were stating the obvious, we needed a well disciplined citizen militia."

Ditto - the few that understand the above statement are enough.

Also Mike, when you say semi-auto ban are you referring only to rifles? And, are you suggesting a law similar to the 90's AWB or are you including confiscation?
In a nutshell the only action taken by the government is the prohibition of the sale and manufacture of certain arms, I'm yet to hear rumblings of anything beyond that
and am interested in a source if you have.

You might like the article below. The Happy Valley Oregon Mall shooter faced a concealed carry holder who drew and obtained a sight picture - the shooter is dead, and it will be impossible to prove. However, the way the timing went down, the shooter shot himself right after he realized there was an armed individual drawing on him. He retreated
and shot himself. The concealed carry holder saw innocents directly behind the perpetrator and chose not to fire, the right thing to do.

Everyone that carries has thought through this situation and prayed they never have to make that decision.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html



I can only speculate as to what is coming. I don't think that this will be like the 94 ban at all. They are reaching much deeper. The bushmaster rifle that was used in Conneticut was a Conneticut compliant rifle, which would make it identical to a post Clinton ban configuration. Prior to the 94 AWB "The Supreme Court" ruled that they couldn not name a gun by name or single out a manufacturer. (I know, tell that to Norinco) Herein lies the problem, say that they ban the AR-15 which actually does not exist. There has never been a rifle named the AR-15. There was an AR-10, but never an AR-15.

For the sake of discussion, they ban the AR-15, the manufacturer, changes the way that the barrel attaches to the reciever, or changes the color and they call it the AR-16. The problem that these "experts" have is that they cannot define an assault rifle. Does an assault rifle have a wood stock or a plastic stock? What makes it an assault rifle? The only thing that they could legally do is ban certain features that have little tactical value in the first place. These people are beyond dumb. The very first version of the AWB actually banned importation of Black rifles. H&K started producing white and pink versions of the SL-8. I remember buying one and then buying a bottle of black Rit dye to change the color. Wish I still had that gun.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 04:00 PM
I believe that they will try to classify ALL semiauto rifles and all pistol magazines with a capacity greater than 10 as title 2 weapons. If they do this, all hell will break loose. They did this with the streetsweeper shotgun (which is a turd, BTW). If there is another shooting, which I think there will be, we may even see a total registration.

Here is exactly what will happen with a magazine ban. If they limit capacity to 10 rounds people and the gun manufacturers will gravitate to larger caliber weapons with lower capacity. Instead of being shot with a .380 or a 9mm, people will start being shot with 45 ACP and 10mm. Remember I said this, people will gravitate to larger caliber weapons.

On a side note, I can slide lock reload in .5 seconds, so the mag ban means nothing to me, these morons can kiss my ass. It amazes me how stupid they are. Shall I continue with how worthless legislation is, or do the gun grabbers here still think that the criminals will obey the law?

wickedfarmer
12-19-2012, 04:00 PM
I thought there was actual definition/criteria for assult rifle. Without looking...intermediate range cartridge capable of full auto or burst with a shoulderable stock.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 04:12 PM
The reason that I think they will include all semi-autos is that they will grab all that they can, while they can, and for all practical purposes an M1a1 is just as effective a killer as an AR type rifle, actually more.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 04:17 PM
I thought there was actual definition/criteria for assult rifle. Without looking...intermediate range cartridge capable of full auto or burst with a shoulderable stock.

That is the definition that the rest of the world uses, the legal definition is much different, much broader, and completely undefineable. Besides the technical definition of an assault weapon is already titled as a class 3. I would want to do some serious research before I said anything for certain, but I am pretty sure that a title 3 weapon has never been used in the commission of a crime, ever. The last I checked an M16 is $15,000 plus transfer.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 04:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNYAFat_ms

This guy isn't super fast, but you get the idea of how effective a capacity ban will be. Again, these people are stupid.

Twin Locusts
12-19-2012, 04:36 PM
I believe that they will try to classify ALL semiauto rifles and all pistol magazines with a capacity greater than 10 as title 2 weapons. If they do this, all hell will break loose. They did this with the streetsweeper shotgun (which is a turd, BTW). If there is another shooting, which I think there will be, we may even see a total registration.

Here is exactly what will happen with a magazine ban. If they limit capacity to 10 rounds people and the gun manufacturers will gravitate to larger caliber weapons with lower capacity. Instead of being shot with a .380 or a 9mm, people will start being shot with 45 ACP and 10mm. Remember I said this, people will gravitate to larger caliber weapons.

On a side note, I can slide lock reload in .5 seconds, so the mag ban means nothing to me, these morons can kiss my ass. It amazes me how stupid they are. Shall I continue with how worthless legislation is, or do the gun grabbers here still think that the criminals will obey the law?

Agreed, whatever comes down will be similar to, and more comprehensive than, Clinton AWB. The irony about the process is how that when legislation passes and the know-nothings see the headlines, "Assault Weapons Banned" they think that magically all these, as defined, arms disappear or become illegal to own. The ban only effects new sales and manufacturing, there many millions of these arms owned currently and nothing about that changes. An AWB will have no impact whatsoever on spree killers for the next 50 years.

The degree to which the "American perspective" on rights and freedoms has been skewed by public education is staggering. Stalin and Khrushchev's 'Useful Idiots' are now the majority, and only took a few decades since the Cold War. Now that Generation Duck Face can vote all bets are off; we're at greased-pig speed toward an Orwellian theme park.

Twin Locusts
12-19-2012, 04:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNYAFat_ms

This guy isn't super fast, but you get the idea of how effective a capacity ban will be. Again, these people are stupid.

I'm not even in the same zip code as this guy - I don't have to take my eyes off range but have never practiced speed.

Never shot a G17, I've 50 round qualified twice with a G19, 100's on both. There are a lot of Glock detractors out there,
but I love my 19, most consistent, true grouping I can produce. Ironically, the only jam I've ever had on it was while
qualifying, whole range had to cease fire. The bad part was, by the rules, I couldn't clear my own jam - instructor had
to come over and do it. Out of 10 in the class though, six were Glock carriers. The rest were hammerless revolvers.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 04:50 PM
Agreed, whatever comes down will be similar to, and more comprehensive than, Clinton AWB. The irony about the process is how that when legislation passes and the know-nothings see the headlines, "Assault Weapons Banned" they think that magically all these, as defined, arms disappear or become illegal to own. The ban only effects new sales and manufacturing, there many millions of these arms owned currently and nothing about that changes. An AWB will have no impact whatsoever on spree killers for the next 50 years.

The degree to which the "American perspective" on rights and freedoms has been skewed by public education is staggering. Stalin and Khrushchev's 'Useful Idiots' are now the majority, and only took a few decades since the Cold War. Now that Generation Duck Face can vote all bets are off; we're at greased-pig speed toward an Orwellian theme park.

Amen Brother, I started a few posts along these lines myself, but then stopped myself. You know the whole honey vs. vinegar analogy.

So far the word that I am getting is that it will not be retroactive, I say bullshit. The idea of reclassifying title 2 weapons was being talked about before the shooting, so I definately think they are on it hard. Here is the deal, I doubt that congress has the votes to do this, and even if they did, they don't have the athority. If they are going to do it in such a way that it will not be thrown out in the supreme court, they will have to have a constitutional ammendment. They have precedence for reclassification, but even that was illegal. I think that the reason noone challenged the street sweeper is because nobody cared. That may have been a mistake. What it really comes down to is what people will tolerate, and I believe that we will have an answer to that very soon.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 04:52 PM
I'm not even in the same zip code as this guy - I don't have to take my eyes off range but have never practiced speed.

Never shot a G17, I've 50 round qualified twice with a G19, 100's on both. There are a lot of Glock detractors out there,
but I love my 19, most consistent, true grouping I can produce. Ironically, the only jam I've ever had on it was while
qualifying, whole range had to cease fire. The bad part was, by the rules, I couldn't clear my own jam - instructor had
to come over and do it. Out of 10 in the class though, six were Glock carriers. The rest were hammerless revolvers.

Come visit me, I'll have you under 1.5 from concealment in a few hours. A 1911 is the kind of gun you show to your buddies, a Glock is the kind of gun you show to the bad guy.

Twin Locusts
12-19-2012, 05:11 PM
Come visit me, I'll have you under 1.5 from concealment in a few hours. A 1911 is the kind of gun you show to your buddies, a Glock is the kind of gun you show to the bad guy.

Appreciate the offer, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods...

One thing that strikes me when I watch this - my understanding is that it's not a "feature" of any Glock to disengage slide lock upon magazine seating. I know that it happens, that a slide will engage upon slamming a mag, but isn't that an anomaly? Never heard if there's a competition tweak that causes it.

The thing I don't get is that he can't have his left thumb on the slide release because he has to have the slide back to chamber round #2. So he's hovering over the slide release until he seats the mag, left thumbing the release then trigger pull. I was able to pause enough to see that he is staying on trigger during the exchange, be great if they showed whether he got both shots on paper.

wickedfarmer
12-19-2012, 05:20 PM
Come visit me, I'll have you under 1.5 from concealment in a few hours. A 1911 is the kind of gun you show to your buddies, a Glock is the kind of gun you show to the bad guy.

Glock 23 .40 S&W with crimson trace. Sorry Mike....sorry to disapoint you with the crimson trace.

Wicked farmer

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 05:21 PM
Appreciate the offer, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods...

One thing that strikes me when I watch this - my understanding is that it's not a "feature" of any Glock to disengage slide lock upon magazine seating. I know that it happens, that a slide will engage upon slamming a mag, but isn't that an anomaly? Never heard if there's a competition tweak that causes it.

The thing I don't get is that he can't have his left thumb on the slide release because he has to have the slide back to chamber round #2. So he's hovering over the slide release until he seats the mag, left thumbing the release then trigger pull. I was able to pause enough to see that he is staying on trigger during the exchange, be great if they showed whether he got both shots on paper.

Ok, I gave a piss poor example of a slide lock reload. All of the other videos on the page were like 3 minutes long. This guy has many problems that cost him time, and I know damn well he did not hit the target. He didn't even obtain sight picture.

I will send you a PM of what he should have done and why. I usually charge 50 bucks an hour for this, and I'm sure the anti-gun crowd is not interested.

Mike Goff
12-19-2012, 06:12 PM
Glock 23 .40 S&W with crimson trace. Sorry Mike....sorry to disapoint you with the crimson trace.

Wicked farmer

At least it's a Glock, good caliber too

BigT
12-20-2012, 12:15 PM
Larry, look back in history. Prohibition was put into place because Alcohol was blamed for crime. What happened? Prohibition had the opposite effect. It backfired. Crime sky rocketed, and corruption was rampant. People still got alcohol through speak eases or home stills. Gun control will have no effect on crime whatsoever, other than increase corruption and crime just as prohibition did.

Think of it this way. How many criminals do you know of that would use their own personal (and registered) gun in a crime? I know I certainly wouldn't. Much easier to buy a gun on the black market (they are readily available, and outlawing guns will make this a very lucrative market).

I wonder what the outcome would have been had the staff at the school been armed?

BTW: read the statistics. Most of these shooting sprees occur in areas with tight gun controls. Criminals know people will be defenseless.

Mike Goff
12-20-2012, 05:39 PM
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8694


Common sense may be prevailing, even our attorney general is calling for CHL in the classroom. The man that is writing the lesson plan for this 3 day class is the gentleman that I mentioned earlier. Former swat commander, and advocate for training teachers.

Jim Warfield
12-20-2012, 07:32 PM
"Even a trained Policeman can forget something, leave a gun exposed, ex cetra, why would a school teacher be any better at keeping a gun locked up, in just their control?
Breaking into a school is a fairly common thing isn't it? Maybe it should be worked on so that it isn't common nor easy before guns live there.
This is not an easy problem to begin to solve.

Mike Goff
12-20-2012, 08:12 PM
"Even a trained Policeman can forget something, leave a gun exposed, ex cetra, why would a school teacher be any better at keeping a gun locked up, in just their control?
Breaking into a school is a fairly common thing isn't it? Maybe it should be worked on so that it isn't common nor easy before guns live there.
This is not an easy problem to begin to solve.

You are absolutely right Jim. People are human. I would first like to bust the myth that policemen are the standard by which all firearm compentancy is measured. I teach cops, I teach civillians, and I have taught military, on a side note I'm waiting to hear back from TDI, but it looks like I will be teaching in this pilot program. First off most cops are terrible shots. Most practice once a year right before they qualify and that's it. Their hit to shots fired ratio is horrendous. The personallity trait that causes most of them to become police officers is usually the very thing that prevents them from becoming accurate with a handgun. Most cops are very authoritarian, some would say control freak, but you get the idea. In order to be an expert marksman, you have to give up control to be in control. A tight grip will cause you to miss the target. They constantly jerk the trigger, and then will argue with you about it. I like to set there gun up for a malfunction and record them with my phone. I then show them the video of them jerking the trigger so hard that their entire arm moves. They still argue about it.

As far as compentancy goes, many, NOT all, become complacent, and burnt out. I can't say that I blame them for this. I believe that you would be surprised at how effective we are at teaching students the importance of safe gun habits and accountability. We have videos that are so sad, they make people cry, and then we engrain in them that it can be avoided.

Ultimately the alternative is to leave our schools as mass murder welcome centers. You bring up valid points that we will address passionately, and dilligently. I am volunteering my time on this project, for me it's personal, my daughter is in one of those mass murder welcome centers. Each teacher I train will have my number and have access to private lessons and or discussions anytime they want. It is my mission to bring everyone that I can to a level of profficency that will rival the best that the tactical community has to offer.

Jim Warfield
12-21-2012, 01:03 AM
A 95 yr. old man who was a Policeman told me how he removed a bullet, had the rookie shoot, of course nothing happened ballistically but he jerked his arm way up in the air, and that was why he couldn't ever hit the target! (He was blaming the gun!)
Story 2: A local Farmer as a teenager was shooting the 1911 Army 45, cal, pistol, his cousin wanted to shoot it, said he knew what he was doing.. he pulled the trigger , it fired, the recoil brought the pistol back beside his head, he fired a second time via reflex the bullet went straight up but the second shot deafened the guy, perminently in that one, near, ear.
Sorry to "report" but late tonight on Facebook some idiot made a video from the Tv broadcast of Dr, Parker, parent who lost his little girl , is now being called "An Actor" as they critique his "performance", it was all faked !
Amazing isn't it? I will bet the same people who faked 9-11 and World War Two did this.