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Jim Warfield
12-11-2008, 10:57 PM
Do you think the auto workers are over paid? They take advantage?
The union protects lazy workers?
40 years ago the ceo's got 25 times the wages of the average plant worker. Today they get 2,500 times the wages of the average plant worker.
Now who's taking advantage?
Is anybody worth $2,800.00 per /hour?
Is his 15 minute turd-break really worth $1,700.oo?
"Don't Flush it!"
(It's too valuable to just flush it down!)
Varnish it, mount it on a piece of polished walnut with a brass nameplate.
I have my 1989 Olds Spookmobile Station wagon and a 2008 Jeep Wrangler "X" 4-door (A Chrysler product) 24 mpg - 4 spd automatic -210? HP. V-6.
I love stripping it down in the summer off comes the complete top, the four doors, the windshield lays down and it's bright YELLOW with black fenders and black top, can't miss it!
It is the first new car that I have bought since 1973.
It's front-on crash test impresses me greatly and it's rubber fenders bounce deer pretty well, like last night.

shawnc
12-11-2008, 11:52 PM
It's probably safe to say that they all get paid too much. The thing about CEOs is they have a lot more responsibility and have to answer for all problems (which is why they should have all been fired long ago).

The problem I have with unions (one of them anyway) is that they no longer do what they were created to do, and say they still do. Instead of stopping what amounted to slave labor and very dangerous working conditions, they are determined to get whatever they can for their members while they can. Unfortunately we have reached the tipping point, and there is no more to get.

Greg Chrise
12-12-2008, 10:20 AM
On some news report I heard the big 3 union workers end up costing $48 per hour and every car has so many workers it costs $2,000 per car over and above a Toyota or Nissan or Volkswagon that is produced in America.

So either some workers have all got together and priced themselves literally out of the market or the lesser paid guys are just a microscopic cog in a catastrophic plan.

4 years from now when all the plastic cars fly apart it will be a good time for anyone with wrenches and duct tape.

Greg Chrise
12-12-2008, 10:34 AM
Maybe I should get a $3500 lo-jack system for my $40 bicycle?

Jim Warfield
12-12-2008, 10:49 AM
I once HAD to drive a brother-in-law's car to a wedding 50 miles away in a 66 Chevelle that has an $800 sterio system, mag wheels , no muffler, slipping transmission, almost no brakes at all and the drivers front wheel stuck out of the fender at a funny angle (broken "A" frame.)
He had no license.
It was a one-way trip, I refused to get in that car again.
It was quite a skillfull drive testing my quick reactions as a small bump would send the whole car into the next lane because of that angled tire-thing.
Had to have that $800 sterio and mags though!

Greg Chrise
12-12-2008, 06:49 PM
My helper asked a man at a gas station if he would sell his late 70's delta 88 Oldsmobile. The man said how much would you give me. My helper who has tops $1 in his pocket at any time said $1200. The man said you could buy the rims for that much.

He went on to say he had $5500 in the motor and $2500 in the transmission. I watched it sputter away. And thought it doesn't sound like it has aluminum heads so it must be he has been putting quarters in the engine every time he has to go somewhere. The vinyl top being half off showing solid rust is just calculated to protect this investment.

Either the guy is driving around a piggy bank or I need to be his mechanic if he spends that much and it is okay if it runs like crap.

Mike Goff
12-12-2008, 08:06 PM
Labor unions cost a company money in ways that far exceed just the hourly wage. I once worked as a fabricator for a non union shop who built and installed automated machinery for Honda in Anna Ohio. Honda hires both union and non union vendors to do a variety of work, during thier holiday shutdown. The non union workers would have to post a watch at both the job site and the parking lot, to keep the union guys from slashing our tires, sabotaging our work or other pranks like welding our toolboxes shut. It was always important to keep an eye towards the sky because if you happen to be under a union workers jlg lift, you never knew what might be dropped on your head.
These guys would drag thier feet for weeks on a job that should take days. The popular saying with them was that if they got done early, it would be expected of them all of the time.
In a union environment you will never see a line technician pick up a piece of garbage from a parking lot, because a union janitor might file a grievence.
I have always felt sorry for companies held hostage by labor unions.
I am the proud owner of a Nissan that was built right here in the USA. For the sake of principle I prefer not to contribute to Union Labor.

Jim Warfield
12-12-2008, 10:09 PM
The 14? Billion loan figures out to spending $5,000 per/job, the Republicans voting against this are from more southern states that have spent more of their money than that per/job to entice Honda, Nissan, Toyota and Mercedes to place their car assembly plants there.
Try $125,000/per job created for the Mercedes plant or $110,000 per/job for one of the other's on this list.
The government..we working tax payers, will then be picking up the massive bills when the auto workers from the big three lose their jobs, this will amount to even more than a mere extra $5,000 per/employee.
Nobody wants to see our money pizzed away with nothig to show for it, but what about all those Billions wall street and the insurance companys waltzed off into the sunset with?
Nobody seems to know or really want to care about where it went? What are they using it for? And when will the taxpayers be seeing it come back into the Government's coffers?
Was it AIG who spent 300 million of the bail out money to make a construction company in China?
Replacing the roads, highways and bridges in this country seems a more important place to be spending OUR money, since the Chinese now have all our money, they should spend it there, they earned it.

monsterwax
12-20-2008, 10:10 PM
I agree with the unions on some things, but on this particular issue, I have to differ. (Although I certainly mean no offense to Jim.) I want to see the American auto companies survive also, but that doesn't mean just giving them money: that means they need money AND they have to do something different to become profitable.

Last year GM sold 9.369 million vehicals, more than anyone else. Yet they ended the year with a $38 billion LOSS. Toyota sold the second highest amount of vehicals and they MADE $15 billion. The math doesn't lie. Both companies over pay their CEOs, but only the older American companies with unions spend so much more on labor and benifits. If the foreign companies would close, I bet the American companies would go back to becoming profitable, but the foriegn car companies are NOT going to close. If anything, it will be the American companies that will shut down.

The bill that the Republicans voted for was to loan the US companies the funds they needed, on the condition that the labor unions drop their wages to the level that the non-union workers get at Toyota and other competitors (until the crisis passes). The big three CEOs already agreed to cut their own salaries to just $1 a year until they become profitable again. Would the Unions agree to drop their wages to what the competion got, just long enough to save the company? No, they refused, saying "not till 2011 when the contract expires." That's kind of like a cancer patient refusing to stop smoking until after he gets well. You just want to grab him and shake him and say "WAKE UP! YOU'RE DYING! You need to make some sacrifices NOW in order to get well, THEN you can go back to smoking (or the budget-busting wages/benifits or whatever)." Unfortunately, some patients are too stubborn for their own good.

I do not want the government to loan $17 Billion in tax payer money to companies that are not going to make any significant changes in the way they are losing money. It was a mistake to give the banks the money without making serious conditions on those loans, and as a result, we still have the credit crunch. But just because we made the mistake before doesn't mean we owe it to the unions to make the mistake again. Two wrongs do not make a right.

You would think the Unions would figure out that their LIFE is on the line, and they should take the cut just long enough to keep the host organism alive. If Bush is stupid enough to pay the money without insisting on serious changes, then I'm sure they will take the money, last a few more months, and STILL go bankrupt, because $17 billion divided between two companies won't solve the problem when just one of those companies is losing $38 billion BEFORE the crisis really hit. I know they expect to get even more money from Obama, but with those kind of losses, they can only make so many trips to the well before it is dry. (And lets be honest, Obama will not ask the Unions to make any concessions (for political reasons), which unfortunately, will only prolong the agony and the companies will still go bankrupt.)

We're tossing good money after bad, because this recession is not going away anytime in the next few months. (If we are lucky, it will only last a couple more years, but that's way too long for the auto industry.) Then the Unions will say, "Terrific! It's 2011 and the recession is over, time for a new contract!" But alas, the company closed in 2009 and now the workers can't even sell their homes because most everyone in town lost their jobs.

If they make serious changes and match the competitors costs, there is still no guarantee they will succeed. But if they don't make changes and lower their costs to that of the competition (at least for now), then they ARE guaranteed to fail. It's as sure as 2 - 2 = 0

N2SPOOKINU
12-20-2008, 11:49 PM
[Where do I begin? Well, I work for a foundry that is owned by Toyota and we build engine blocks and cylinder heads for them. They purchased our company in 1991 and have expanded our facility 5 times in the 12 years I have worked for them. When I started working there in 1996 they had 75 team members. Now they have over 600. We have a great healthcare system a 401k and they treat us with respect and honor. Our plant is running slow also because of the recession but they have not and refuse to layoff any team members. Toyota blames upper managment for the downturn in business and they continually tell us it is not our fault and assure us we will not be laid off. With all the uncertainty in the economy right now it is a comfort to know I dont have to worry about my job. I have been in unions before for 10 years before the job I have now and I was laid off 3 times in those 10 years mainly due to politics building fighter planes for the military. Look around, your " AMERICAN" car dealers at the manufacture points on those cars and tell me how many of them were actually made in America???? For a fact I can tell you Toyota Camry,Corolla,Avalon,Tundra,Highlander and many others are made right here in the U.S.A. Along with the part suppliers for ALL makes and models. Toyota doesnt want the big3 to go under because most auto suppliers supply ALL auto makers. If the big 3 go under the cost of parts will sky rocket and trickle down to all car makers. Toyota makes a great product and so do the big3. I have a Ford p/u and a Toyota car. I like them both. To me it doesnt matter what you drive we all have our opinions. My job is secure. Why is Toyota so secure and the big3 arent? Well my first guess is the 95% pay for setting at home. What the hell is that? WHY? I dont understand why you would give someone that much of their pay for being laid off. Toyota would never do that! Another thing that Toyota does is they offer you a buyout for your retirement. They offer you a lump sum payment. You can take the monthly retirement or do the lumpsum. Most retirees opt for the lump sum which cuts down on how much Toyota needs for their retirement system. I make damn good wages and I am proud to say I work for an AMERICAN made car manufacturer even if it is a foreign company. Can the big3 say they dont have to worry about a layoff ... Or worse!!!!

Jim Warfield
12-21-2008, 09:19 AM
My Sister and her husband moved from Wisconsin to Tennessee several years ago, he got a promotion to open a branch of the company down there .
Their ad in the paper promised $7.00 an hr. and a pair of coverralls, they offered 50 jobs the first day 300 people showed up and this was a town of 4,500.
Lower taxes, smaller heat bills, a more pliable workforce all made it attractive to live there and place your production there.
As I type this the wind chill is 30 below zero here in northern Illinois, this takes money directly out of my pocket to feed a furnace.
Some low taxing states provide very little in services for their population.
Life is a balancing act of income versus expenditures...then the greedy people screw it all up for everyone else. It is very similar to watching a hog lot. The majority all are content to peacefull get along but there is always one or two out of the 50 who have to sneak around the sleeping group and nip tails making for squealing and consternation.

maliciousstudios
12-21-2008, 10:43 AM
lol.... damn republicans....lol Without Unions we would not be where we are today, you would not be getting paid as much as you are right now and you wouldnt have the rights that you have thanks to Unions fighting for them. I will agree, Unions have a good side and a bad side. I myself belong to BLET Brotherhood Of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen - Teamsters. The answer to the problems with the unions in the automobile industry here in the U.S. should be about the same as our industry since they supposedly affect the economy as bad as the goverment says they do... Railroaders cannot strike, the government steps in. We directly effect the economy. Every time I turn around GM is on strike... or Ford is on strike.... gets a bit old.

On a seperate not can someone explain this to me ??

If GM was in a position to purchase daimler chrysler - Cerberus Capital Management, L.P. and begin a "merger" than where did the money go?? Now they need a bailout?? As far as Daimler Chrysler heres something of interest.

First heres some background - read this, you wont believe it..

JOHN SNOW :

CSX Corp. - http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,439298,00.html
Johnson & Johnson
Marathon Oil Corporation
United States Steel Corp.
CarMax Inc.
Circuit City Stores Inc.
GTE Corporation
Verizon Communications Inc.
Sapient Corp.
Verizon New York Inc.
Johns Hopkins University
University of Virginia, The
National Gallery Of Art
George Washington University Law Center
United States Department of The Treasury
Cerberus Capital Management, L.P. - OWNES CONTROLLING % OF CHRYSLER
George Washington University
University of Toledo
Deutsche Bank Trust Company Americas
Kenyon College
Federated Prudent Bear Fund
Deutsche Bank AG


Buried on the business page of The New York Times Saturday were the details of Detroit’s biggest snow job yet–literally as well as figuratively. Turns out that Cerberus CEO John Snow, who spent three-and-a-half lackluster, and some might say lap-doggish, years as President Bush’s second Treasury secretary, is leading a who’s who of crony capitalists in a lobbying campaign for a taxpayer bailout to “salvage Cerberus’ investment in Chrysler.”

That’s right. Not to save the jobs of Chrysler employees or America’s disappearing manufacturing base, mind you, but to prevent “one of the world’s richest and most secretive private investment companies” from having to take a relatively modest financial hit and use some of its own capital to prop up the smallest of the major automakers.

(…)

Last year Cerberus and about 100 co-investors bought an 80% stake in Chrysler and its financing arm at what financial analysts universally say was a fire sale price of $7.4 billion. (Cerberus’ own stake was $2 billion.) Business Week described it as Cerberus getting Chrysler “essentially gratis.”

To date, Cerberus has barely tapped any of its massive holdings–its investments in Chrysler are estimated to be just 7% of its assets under management–to stabilize Chrysler’s precarious finances; the exception was a $2 billion loan in July. Instead, the company has shed 30,000 jobs, a specialty of cost-cutting corporate flip artists like Cerberus.

The main reason for that slimming down? Cerberus has been anxiously trying to fit into its Wall Street wedding gown. According to close followers of the auto industry, Snow and company have been courting GM for a merger with at least the same fervor as it has lobbied the government for a bailout.

(…)

Now Cerberus is looking for the taxpayers to buy them time before they can get a buyout. And to add insult to fiduciary injury, the company has not offered to put any of its money at risk to match the government relief dollars and show good faith to the taxpayers. The best they could do, according to the Times, was to pledge to forgo any fees that it might have collected on its investments if it receives a government loan.

“We’re not in this for the money,” said Cerberus COO Mark Neporent, in what easily qualifies as the most laughable statement in American politics since Sarah Palin said seeing Russia qualified her to be commander in chief.

And what’s particularly outrageous is that our so-called representatives are letting the thieves at Cereberus get away with it.

It’s really quite simple — if Cereberus believes that it’s investment in Chrysler is so important, it needs to put it’s money where it’s mouth is and stop asking taxpayers for a hand-out.


( INTERESTING..... NO ?? )

monsterwax
12-21-2008, 02:01 PM
This brings up another point that is totally unrelated to the topic of this thread, but I get the feeling the vast majority of haunt owners have full time professions in other areas. Not all of them, the ones who can afford to work on it all year long, that must really be something, but I'd be curious to know just how many that is. And it would would also be interesting to know what other professions are represented in our ranks.

For my part, I'm a part time Communications instructor, and I also make documentaries and trading cards. (Juggling those and the haunt can be a handful in the Fall!) But I'd love to hear what the rest of our gang does the other months out of the year. Some folks list it on their profiles, but many say N/A or skip it. Any chance we can get these folks to open up?

maliciousstudios
12-21-2008, 02:12 PM
I am an Engineer for CSX CORP. yes, I agree not enough time in the day to play with blood.... ( Unless I quit....hmmmm....I wonder.... )

N2SPOOKINU
12-21-2008, 08:21 PM
I'm a tool and die maker for Toyota by day and a haunt owner by nite. I was a weekend warrior and only worked on the weekends Fri. Sat. and Sun. 12 hour days which gave me plenty of time during the week to build but the slow down of business causes me to go to day shift. I get up at 4a.m. drive 1hour and 40 minutes to my job, put in my 8 and go back the 1hour 40 minutes. Most days I go straight to the haunt and work until 11pm or so. Then go home and do it all over again the next day. It's long hours but I wouldnt change a thing. I like my job and I love my haunt. Insurance is a big thing that keeps me working. I have a child with disabilities and need the insurance.

monsterwax
12-22-2008, 01:42 AM
Jim was good enough to start a different thread where folks can give a bit of background about what they do in the "real world". It's called "What's Your Resume?"

I hope folks will chime in there and we'll see what the everyone in this forum does. For one thing, it really helps sort out who's who by associating a real live person to their screen name. It also shows how many of us are juggling quite a few different careers to make our haunt happen. I personally think engineers and tool guys have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! ( I sure wish I knew how to professionally engineer things or had all sorts of high end tools at my disposal.)

It's also interesting to see how our other jobs help us in the haunt biz. I think one of my unexpected benefits was going to film school and working with lighting, writing, acting, and editing. It not only helps with the advertising, but also the scene layouts and how the action should play out before the audience. I never dreamed I would use that education for this, but you never really know how a random class or experience can help you in business-- especially the haunt business!

Jim Warfield
12-22-2008, 09:20 AM
Yahoo news story:Sales way down, profits way down. Not Good.

N2SPOOKINU
12-22-2008, 06:34 PM
Your right Jim Sales and profits are way down for Toyota but we have 1 BIG advantage. Toyota owes no one anything. Every time they build a new plant or add on to 1 they pay in cash. This gives Toyota a big edge when needing capital. They are the largest auto maker in Japan and they are always fighting back and forth for the #1 position in the world with G.M.. Sales may be down but I put my money on Toyota to come out ahead once this is all said and done.

Jim Warfield
12-24-2008, 05:17 PM
What a different world it would be (for the better) if this was a common practise rather than the exception.
This little town I live in has always had many elderly citizens in it and many of them have always been very conservative with their money whether they have a lot of it or not.

N2SPOOKINU
12-24-2008, 07:02 PM
I have pondered over a solution to all this buyout stuff. All I can think of as a solution would be to give every tax paying american $100,000. The small stimulus checks they gave out before did nothing but put gas in peoples gas tanks. If they gave a large one like this it would give tax payers the ability to pay back their loans on their houses and get caught up so the banks would be in better shape. Payoff their credit cards and other bills and give people the ability to buy cars and trucks from dealers. Instead of helping the big guy why not give it to the little guy and let it trickle UP thru the system thus helping all americans since afterall we are what makes up this great country of ours! No matter what business you are in you start at the bottom and work your way up so why not stimulate the economy the same way? Just my thoughts.... any comments???

Greg Chrise
12-24-2008, 09:01 PM
Since the entire economy is some kind of emergency, I haven't heard anything about the next stimulous check. It is probably timed for when everyone self employed is to pay their taxes. The catch is you don't get it until you file and then it gets gobbled up by either the IRS, Social security or some child support fund. I don't know what the percentages are but really only maybe a third of the population of the entire country are actually in the getting a paycheck and limited to only that catagory.

Another 20% are in prison costing us money, another 20% are retired or disabled and expecting their check on the 3rd of every month. Another 20% are actually government employees who if the government gobbles your stimulous check are assured of getting their paychecks. So this leaves only 7% of the population that are self employed and can change how much income they make as the market permits. This catagory would cover every thing from drug dealers, flea markets, black markets and Corporate CEOs.

So, these bail outs as well as the added taxes that are going to be called for 10 years from now to cover all this free style money printing all come from the origional 30% that actually get a weekly paycheck.

What most people don't see is how much of every large business is getting told or gang audited by the government because they were 50% spawned by the government anyhow. Every coal mine, drill rig, power plant or any change to any of that was partnered from the start with govenment land, regulation and financing. The big companies are simply managing in the way they were told to.

Chapter 11 means they just aren't paying anyone as they go about business as usual until the govenment figures out what they did wrong, like give away all the business and get all the loans from foreign countries. Some of the management of ports and even toll roads have been given away as concessions to foreign countries that do 100% control and own these companies.

It's like the whole country is a Ponzi Scheme. Only the cards have been up over the last year when the governent is no longer really in control. Does every town really need 40 chain restaurants, 14 malls with 20 overly financed inventories each, 100,000 cars sitting on lots "On sale now" all financed by the orient? I don't think so. Take it all away.

Do we really need armies of Grandmas in red Christmas sweaters with bells sewed on, wearing 30 year old fu fu, because they had their hair done in August and haven't had a proper bath since, driving gold Nissans and hitting the streets to keep the economy going? No we don't stay at home Grandma! Whose economy is this anyhow?

I saw a news report that the regional Salvation Army bell ringers aren't pulling in the bucks like they used to. They had a goal of $175,000 was to be raised right now. Now it looks like alot of the homeless will really be homeless? How does that work? I'm getting a little tired of seeing charities that have ice machines, geni garage door openers, carpeted offices, multi million dollar facilities and a fleet of trucks.

When things get tough, 70% of the population might have to actually do some work. For shame.

Jim Warfield
12-24-2008, 11:29 PM
People make as much money as 10,000 other people make, this is the percentage of the very wealthy in our population, (one more time, it is a little confusing)
There are 20 people for every 10,000 people who make as much money as the rest of that group of 10,000, or 9,980 incomes equal the money made by 20 people.
And of course those richest 20 no doubt contribute alot of money to politicians to keep their financial wheels well greased while the rest of us......?

maliciousstudios
12-25-2008, 11:03 AM
HELL YEAH.... I would say before helping the banks, the car makers, etc. they could have sent out 100 G's instead of filtering down from the bigshots pockets it would blow upward. 100 G's a piece.... pay off houses, to buy cars. to buy new houses, to spend.... invest....etc. you would think that might have been the smarter way to do things. Unfortunately the house votes in ( your best interests ) I think I would like to see someone fom the middle class in office - can you even imagine ?? A middle Class President..... Hmmmm..... Joe Shmoe for President 2012

Jim Warfield
12-25-2008, 12:59 PM
Maybe someone's theory as to why not to hand out money to the little guys was because of the bookkkeeping nightmare of keeping track of who got what, if they repaid , ex cetra, SO they hand out Billions to fewer entites, the Banks and Insurance companys ..and they still can't figure out who go how much and where alot of these funds even went!!???
This is seeming like pure robbery with no recourse for Joe Smoe, the guy who gets little or nothing and has to sweat to make anything at all.
During the Depression there was what was called a "Run on the Banks", some people decided not to keep their money in a Bank, then the Government closed all Banks for maybe 2 yrs.? When they reopended people were paid pennys on the dollar for their old account balance.
As soon as it looked bad for the Republicans someone began a new "Run on the Federal Reserve and Treasury Dept. by hoodwinking so many people and inventing the whole economic crisis baloney and welfare with few questions asked for the biggest, richest companys there have ever been.