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Haunted Illinois
12-20-2006, 12:42 AM
Are Hauntworld.com and HauntedHouse.com really about helping the Industry or is the management of each site really only concerned about their own pocketbooks? I’ve been silent about this for long enough, but now I must speak out. I just want to let everyone know that I have been personally blackballed from obtaining paid advertising on both sites.

Larry K. said on behalf of HauntedHouseOnline.com (a site owned by Hauntworld.com): “I will not sell you a featured banner. Its nothing personal but I have a directory and I don't want to send people to another directory. Hopefully you understand. If you want to buy a featured banner then you'll need to trade banners with scarefest.(a haunt outside of Illinois, thus outside of the scope of HauntedIllinois.com’s directory) ”. Sorry Larry, I won’t be blackmailed in such a way. My website promotes Illinois Haunts. Move your Haunt across the state line and we’ll talk!

In a telephone conversation with one of the owners of HauntedHouse.com, I was told that I would no longer be able to retain my paid ad in the Illinois section of their directory because I am considered “competition” by the ownership of the website.

Since when did I become a threat?!? I promote Haunted Houses, for Christ’s sake!!!! How is that a bad thing?!?!

If you’ll excuse my anger and general negative attitude, this is total bull crap. Every season I bust my butt to help the industry. Over the past seven years, I have spent countless hours creating the most comprehensive online directory of Illinois Haunted Attractions that exists ANYWHERE. And it isn’t just a directory that just lets the event listings roll over every year, so it appears to be bigger than everyone elses. I also drive thousands of miles every season to review Haunts in Illinois, at my own expense, just so the general public is more informed.

I usually don’t throw stones, but I’ve finally had enough. Why have I been banned from advertising on these sites? Who is here to help the Industry and who is here to line their own pockets or pat their own egos?

I know what side I am on. I love going to Haunted Houses and I will continue to promote Illinois Haunts, regardless of who blackballs me from their sites, feeling that I may steal valuable traffic from their website. I’m all about promoting Haunts and will always be. Screw profits. I don’t have any. I don’t have an expense account. I go to Haunt conventions and drive to review Haunts out of my own pocket. I do what I do for the love of Haunts and no other reason! I just think it’s really unfair that I am not allowed to advertise on these “big-time” sites because the management seems to look at me as a threat for some odd reason. Go figure!

drfrightner
12-20-2006, 01:05 AM
Adam,

I have to admit you're acting like a total baby on this matter...

I guess HauntedHouse.com recently informed you that you couldn't advertise and this set you off...BIG DEAL MAN!

I told like a year ago you couldn't advertise on my site and for GOOD REASON... YOU ARE NOT A HAUNTED HOUSE!

Our directory is for people who own haunted houses NOT people who own and operate their own paid directory.

You talk about doing it for the love, then don't charge people for featured ads on your website. I'm NOT going to direct people who come to my website to your website, c'mon now! Get real!

Let me tell you something Adam, I've tried to reason with you for years, about my haunted houses should be listed on your site. You WILL NOT allow us to list on your site...why?

St. Louis is yeah a city with about 300,000 people in it...but the St. Louis metro area is about 2.8 million people and about 1 million of those people come from an area refered to as SOUTHERN ILLINOIS! Your GOVENOR comes to St. Louis often beacuse he has to get ON ST. LOUIS TV, PRINT AND RADIO to reach those 1 million people from your state.

Last night we have the braggin rights game Missouri vs. Illinois which every year is held at our arena, half Mo fans and Ill fans. Your second biggest college SIUE and SIUC is in our market. SIUC the second biggest basketball program is in the MISSOURI VALLY CONFERENCE and they play their league tourny in ST. LOUIS!!!

Anyway I've tried to relay this message to you for years, that you're not serving your visitors well, when they can't find haunts closest to them...IE Southern Ill would be looking for haunts in Southern ILL/St. Louis.

At any rate your rules forbid any haunts that are not located in YOUR state...okay. Fine...I don't agree but fine!

Those are YOUR rules, its your website...

So now you want to whine and moan because two website won't let you advertise, and link to your paid listing website?

Somehow it sounds unfair to you that you can have your rules, but other website can't have their rules?

Tell me how this seems unfair to you?

Larry

drfrightner
12-20-2006, 01:16 AM
Adam,

Lastly, you may notice on our website it states our policy and this has been up since day one...no blackmail involved. Just our policy! I will paste it for you...again we have our rules and you have yours. Sorry but we will not allow your advertisement, just as we wouldn't allow one from hauntedhouse.com or anyone else.

We've worked very hard and spent a lot of money to get into the position we are in right now. We do help the industry every single year with free listings, free information, free articles, links and more. I don't know what else I can do or more I can do than I already do...

You charge for listings on your site, good for you...but you can't pay us a couple hundred bucks and expect us to send you all of our ILL traffic it doesn't work that way.

People in your state are paying us to send THEM traffic not your website ... which just gives them even more options. We're being PAID to help a specific haunt and steer what we can do them directly.

How you think we're blackballing or whatever you is OUTRAGOUS!

Stated below is our policy on the website...

If I own my own haunted house search website can I purchase a featured listing?
Good question and the answer is NO! If your site is NOT a haunted house you CAN NOT purchase a listing. All featured banners are reserved for haunted house owners ONLY. You may attempt to purchase one but your purchase will be declined. If we do allow you to purchase a featured link it will be no higher than the fifth link and only with permission prior to purchase.


Again we have OUR OWN RULES ADAM as DO YOU...so stop crying about it! Outside of that you do a good job for your state, so good for you! I hope you do everything you can now and into the future to continue to help the haunts in your state any and every way you possible can!

Larry

drfrightner
12-20-2006, 01:24 AM
Adam,

You're more than welcome to advertise in Hauntworld Magazine, as is HauntedHouse.com or anyone else for that matter including Hauntcon, which they have already, or anyone else for that matter.

We dont' blackball advertisers no matter if they're our competition or not...I will let Leonard Pickel buy every ad in the whole magazine if he so wishes!!! If HauntedHouse.com wants to buy an ad and proclaim they're the best way to find haunts, they're free to do so!

But OUR HAUNTED HOUSE DIRECTORY IS JUST THAT... a Haunted House Directory! Your website is not a haunted house, your website is a paid listing for haunted houses, and an online store.

I will NOT allow Scarefactory to put a banner in the haunted house directory, Transworld, or anyone who's NOT a haunted house.

Why you think thats blackballing I do not know...personally I think you should let the steam of HauntedHouse.com knocking off your ad cool off and rethink what your post. When you've cooled off you'll realize what you're saying is nothing more than sour milk and you just might retract your statements.

Would Google put a link to MSN's search engine on their front page?

Duh...LOL

Larry

PS: Just be happy that Illinois beat Missouri tonight and leave it at that!

drfrightner
12-20-2006, 01:34 AM
Since we're on the subject...

How many times have we seen say Rotting Flesh Radio get onto our message boards and promote something on their site? How many times have we seen people get on here and say "Haunted Attraction Magazine is better than Hauntworld Magazine'. But I do not erase the posts. How many times have we seen people promote their new product, when they could be promoting in our magazine or paying us? How many times have we seen other people who start a haunted house website like 'MyHaunt' or whatever that was called get on these forums and promote their own website.

Heck remember that one guy who was suppose to be the new voice of the industry...Leonard Pickel erased ALL OF HIS posts and promotions on Haunted Attraction, but I never once erased his posts. So what he starts a website and thinks its the next best thing. I don't care.

Whatever helps the industry. These message boards are for peoples knowledge, be it RFR to promote themselves, or HauntedHouse.com for example to promote something they're doing, or even Hauntcon. I could care less if I like them don't like them.

I think I've tried really hard to stand by this policy for the past 10 years! I think what RFR is doing is great and fun, I think that myhaunt website was a lot of work and pretty cool thing, and the list goes on. Let them promote until their heart turns to dust!

Sometimes its very hard to watch, and yes I do have a limit. Jim O'Rear was a prime example, getting on here every single day to downgrade Hauntworld while promoting Halloween Nation. Yeah there was a limit and it was crossed and yeah I got sick of it...but even then I ignored it for atleast a month.

Yes I am very opinionated, and some may not agree with them, but that doesn't stop you from having your opinion! I feel like this site is to help promote the whole industry like someone or not like someone.

We've covered Hauntcon TWICE in our magazine! We have links to his magazine site in our yellow pages sections. What more can I say...the guy I can't stand the most and I still will print his press releases in our magazine, allow his advertisements, and links his magazine.

It doesn't stop me as a single person with a single opinion to voice it...most people who come to this site don't even know we have anything to do with the site.

But we do have limits and allowing NON Haunted houses spots on our directory is NOT serving the public or the haunts who pay for our listings.

End of story!

Outside of that I think we're very open to all!

Larry

Haunted Illinois
12-20-2006, 01:36 AM
Our directory is for people who own haunted houses NOT people who own and operate their own paid directory.


If that is the case, why did you let me buy a featured banner in 2005, but this year you wouldn’t?



You talk about doing it for the love, then don't charge people for featured ads on your website.


Then you shouldn't charge people a penny either, if you love the Industry so much. I charge for a select few featured ads to try and cover my expenses of going to conventions and driving thousands of miles to review haunts each year. Unfortunately, I still end up in the red at the end of the year. I don't make a cent.



Let me tell you something Adam, I've tried to reason with you for years, about my haunted houses should be listed on your site. You WILL NOT allow us to list on your site...why?


You aren’t in Illinois, Larry. Duh! Look at a map. I must draw the line somewhere and that must be at the state line.



So now you want to whine and moan because two website won't let you advertise, and link to your paid listing website?

Somehow it sounds unfair to you that you can have your rules, but other website can't have their rules?

Tell me how this seems unfair to you?


Well.. First of all, you are wrong. I don’t have a “paid listing website”. Only a few haunts pay for a featured listing. The rest of the Haunt listings (over 200 in Illinois) are completely FREE.

I’ll tell you how it seems unfair. Both Hauntworld.com and HauntedHouse.com let me purchase featured banners in 2005 and now they change their tune and won’t allow me to advertise.. somehow seeing me as some sort of threat.




Lastly, you may notice on our website it states our policy and this has been up since day one...no blackmail involved. Just our policy! I will paste it for you...again we have our rules and you have yours. Sorry but we will not allow your advertisement, just as we wouldn't allow one from hauntedhouse.com or anyone else.

Well, you’re wrong again, Larry. You let me buy a Featured Banner in your Illinois section in 2005. So your policy has obviously changed since then (not in place since day one, as you put it!!!!).

drfrightner
12-20-2006, 01:50 AM
If that is the case, why did you let me buy a featured banner in 2005, but this year you wouldn’t?


Response: I allowed you to buy slot #5, when we first started out, and it was a mistake. That year I only sold like 30 slots, this past year I sold almost 300. My job isn't to send people to another website to get lost in even more listings, my job is to steer people to actual haunted houses. Period!



Then you shouldn't charge people a penny either, if you love the Industry so much. I charge for a select few featured ads to try and cover my expenses of going to conventions and driving thousands of miles to review haunts each year. Unfortunately, I still end up in the red at the end of the year. I don't make a cent.

RESPONSE: I'm sure you don't make a cent, but you still charge. You have a paid directory, and I'm not sending my visitors to another paid directory. What you don't understand about that is crazy.




You aren’t in Illinois, Larry. Duh! Look at a map. I must draw the line somewhere and that must be at the state line.

RESPONSE: Again you have your rules, and even though I don't agree with them its your website. You have your rules so good for you, but what gives you the right to complain about other peoples rules? We have rules, you have rules, you have a website of paid haunts as do we...that is where it stays.



Well.. First of all, you are wrong. I don’t have a “paid listing website”. Only a few haunts pay for a featured listing. The rest of the Haunt listings (over 200 in Illinois) are completely FREE.

I’ll tell you how it seems unfair. Both Hauntworld.com and HauntedHouse.com let me purchase featured banners in 2005 and now they change their tune and won’t allow me to advertise.. somehow seeing me as some sort of threat.

RESPONSE: Adam, I let you buy an ad the first year, and then changed my mind when you tried to renew just after October 2005. I told you this a YEAR AGO...so now you want to cry about it. I can tell YOU WHY I changed my mind Adam...

Because your listing was taking traffic away from other people who paid for a listing who owned a haunted house. My customers on my ILL page got fewer hits from me thanks to my stupidity in allowing you an ad.

I do not fear your website, or feel you're a threat by any means. At Transworld I will be doing a seminar on advanced internet marketing...EVERYONE needs to attend this seminar.

I drove OVER 200,000 VISITORS to www.Scarefest.com last season...If I thought you where a threat I wouldn't want on your website, I know your site could help my haunt, as does HauntedHouse.com, Horrorfind.com and the list goes on. They all help! I'm not blackballing you, or trying to do that...that is crazy!

Haunts need to finally wake up to the potential of the web and depending on what state they're on specifically yours they should buy an ad from you. As I stated before good luck to your website, but you're not a haunted house, hense can't buy a featured ad. Again what you don't understand about that is beside me!





Well, you’re wrong again, Larry. You let me buy a Featured Banner in your Illinois section in 2005. So your policy has obviously changed since then (not in place since day one, as you put it!!!!).


RESPONSE: Adam as I already stated I allowed it the first year, but the policy states that you can not do it unless we approve it. I allowed it the first year and realized I made a mistake, and informed you in November 2005 you could not place another ad beacuse you're not a haunted house.

End of story!

Are you a haunted house?

Should another haunted house directory being allowed to place listings and ads amoung other haunted houses? Thats crazy!

Larry

Haunted Illinois
12-20-2006, 02:40 AM
Should another haunted house directory being allowed to place listings and ads amoung other haunted houses?

Absolutely! I have had a HauntWorld.com banner/link, along with a HauntedHouse.com banner/link at the bottom of my directory page since I’ve had the directory. I tell visitors of my site: “Click on the banners above for National Haunt Listings”

Haunted Illinois Directory (http://www.hauntedillinois.com/eventlisting.php?mode=Sort)

Why did I put your banners there for free all this time? Because I want to promote the Industry. If people can’t find what they are looking for at my site, I send them to yours or HauntedHouse.com. That way, everyone wins. Again, I think the important thing is promoting Haunts. ...not which site gets more web traffic.

RJ Productions
12-20-2006, 02:43 AM
Adam,
Not to be rude, but according to your post you were told pretty much
the same thing by two DIFFERENT Haunt directories (who don't usually
even see eye to eye.)

Both state they promote Haunted Houses, not other directories, correct?

You stated:
"Are Hauntworld.com and HauntedHouse.com really about helping the Industry or is the management of each site really only concerned about their own pocketbooks?."

I'm a little confused here? If they were only concerned about their pocketbooks wouldn't they BOTH have sold you banners????

You also stated:
"Over the past seven years, I have spent countless hours creating the most comprehensive online directory of Illinois Haunted Attractions that exists ANYWHERE... I'm all about promoting Haunts and will always be."

I have seen your site and no one denies you do a good job. I have a friend that lives in Carbondale, Illinois. An Illinois Haunted Directory does him and countless other people in Southern Illinois any good as Decatur, Springfield are hours away, Chicago is almost a day's drive, yet St. Louis is 5 minutes across the river.

People in the Quad cities may do more business in Iowa than in Illinois. It seems some people in Illinois would be better served if they knew about haunts across the street when that street is in another state as opposed to only in Illinois when it is across the state!

You draw a line at the state border, people don't STOP at the state line. Yet you yell at Larry when he states you are NOT a Haunt?


You seem to insinuate that these sites have a personal agenda. I don't see Hauntworld listed on HousedHouse.com? I don't see Hauntworld Magazine listed in Haunted Attraction Magazine? How is your situation different???

Haunted Illinois
12-20-2006, 03:00 AM
Q: I'm a little confused here? If they were only concerned about their pocketbooks wouldn't they BOTH have sold you banners????

A: NO. They have both expressed that they don’t want to sell a banner to the “competition”. They claim that HauntedIlinois.com is taking away valuable web traffic (their words, not mine).

Q: You seem to insinuate that these sites have a personal agenda. I don't see Hauntworld listed on HousedHouse.com? I don't see Hauntworld Magazine listed in Haunted Attraction Magazine? How is your situation different???

A: Well, the situation is different because both sites sold me ads in 2005. Now they have suddenly banned me from advertising. Their recent decision to ban me from advertising on their sites is the issue. Had they not allowed me to advertise in the first place, then I would have no reason to complain.

RJ Productions
12-20-2006, 03:20 AM
NO. They have both expressed that they don’t want to sell a banner to the “competition”. They claim that HauntedIlinois.com is taking away valuable web traffic (their words, not mine).

So I would take that as a compliment!


Well, the situation is different because both sites sold me ads in 2005. Now they have suddenly banned me from advertising. Their recent decision to ban me from advertising on their sites is the issue. Had they not allowed me to advertise in the first place, then I would have no reason to complain.

I have a sign posted in my ticket booth that states I reserve the right refuse service to anyone. I have sold people tickets, then refused to sell them another ticket the next week or the next season.

Just because you were sold an ad once, does not give you an unconditional right to continue purchasing. ANY business can reserve the right to refuse service period.

You yourself refuse to extend service citing a "rule" you yourself created.

If a haunt is legally in another state, yet a block away from your patrons is it not a disservice to your patrons NOT to list it???

drfrightner
12-20-2006, 04:10 AM
Adam,

You say...

"I don't allow your events in my directory because they AREN'T IN
ILLINOIS." Move them across the state border and I'll list them.



Great...

I say...

Adam, YOUR NOT A HAUNTED HOUSE because a haunted house directory for haunts in one state is NOT a haunted house. Open a haunted house and I will kindly allow you to advertise.

Until then realize you're making a total fool of yourself!!!!!!!!!!

Finally to respond to your other comments...

You Said:

A: NO. They have both expressed that they don’t want to sell a banner to the “competition”. They claim that HauntedIlinois.com is taking away valuable web traffic (their words, not mine).

My Response: DON'T MAKE UP STORIES...DAMN YOU ARE ACTING LIKE A FIVE YEAR OLD HERE. I didn't say I wouldn't sell you advertisement because you're competition. I said I will NOT sell you advertisement because you are NOT A HAUNTED HOUSE...DUH!!!!!!!!!

Is anyone HOME??????? I will NEVER sell you advertisement on a haunted house directory, because you're not a HAUNTED HOUSE!!!!!!


You said:

A: Well, the situation is different because both sites sold me ads in 2005. Now they have suddenly banned me from advertising. Their recent decision to ban me from advertising on their sites is the issue. Had they not allowed me to advertise in the first place, then I would have no reason to complain.

MY RESPONSE:

DUH AGAIN...You use the word 'suddenly', and 'recent'... I thought I already refreshed your memory. You asked me in November of 2005, now remember we're only a few weeks from the start of 2007, okay for those that can't add thats three different years, I told you in NOVEMBER of TWO THOUSAND AND FIVE I would not allow you to advertise on my site again. NOT SUDDENLY, NOT RECENTLY, so get your facts straight.

Maybe HauntedHouse.com 'RECENTLY' or 'SUDDENLY" told you this but I told you in 2005... now you come out bitching.

I have links up for your website on my system, and I don't have a problem with links for your site, but you're NOT A HAUNTED HOUSE and YOU ARE NOT GETTING LISTED on ANY HAUNTED HOUSE DIRECTORY NOR ARE YOU BUYING AN AD. PERIOD!

You did NOT have an ad on our site in 2006, you're talking about 2005 over one year ago...so I would hardly call that suddenly, or recently. I think I was pretty clear that allowing your directory on our site is not something we're going to do because you're not a haunted house. Period.

As for Scarefest.com I do not need you to list me, at this point I don't care, and haven't asked you about it in over a year. My Scarefest.com website got almost or as much web traffic as your whole entire website. There are many ways to market on the web, your website would be another way to do that, however I'm not going to waste your time like you're doing today. When or if you ever decide to change your policy great, I'd like to look at it. But you changing your policy will have no bearing on me changing my policy.

You're not a haunted house and I won't allow another haunted directory to ever marketing their listings on my directory. Its just common sense!

So give it a rest!

Larry


Larry

12-20-2006, 07:50 AM
Adam, I guess I understand why Larry won't let you have a featured banner spot. I would not place a banner for our competition on a main page of our web site. However, HauntedIllinois.com does at least offer a spot for links to out of state haunts. Deadly has been listed there in the number one spot for some time. (Thanks Adam) I also noticed that Scarefest is listed there as well.

I am curious if Hauntedillinois.com would even be allowed to place a free link spot on the Illinois page of Hauntedhouseonline.com? That would seem fair to me. Or maybe at the bottom of the page were it states:

Did you find the haunted house you were looking for? If not we recommend two other haunted house directories. Try Hauntworld Directory which is the biggest and oldest haunted house directory or try hauntedhouses.us.

Why not just add HauntedIllinois.com to that paragraph? The same could be offered to other individual state haunt listing web sites. Even if there was a small fee to do so.

Just my thoughts,

Howie "Slobber" Erlich
Deadly Intentions Haunted House
www.deadlyintentionshaunt.com

Jim Warfield
12-20-2006, 09:08 AM
In the spirit of Christmas..wasn't it the old "Miracle On 47th Street" classic Christmas movie where "Santa" amazed the customers at "his" store by telling people to try the competition's store just down the street? that "Macy's" -"Gimbel's" sort of thing?
In the end everybody "won" and could feel bettter about life and themselves..........
Merry Christmas everyone!

"Shut Up Tiny Tim or I'll sick the termites on your crutch!"

"Bah Humpbug!"

mindtumor
12-20-2006, 10:21 AM
I have to admit that if I were using hauntworld's find haunted house option to look for a haunt in my state, I wouldn't want my time being wasted being redirected to another find haunted house website. Also I wouldn't want non-haunted houses sites being allowed to possibly buy up one of my states featured ads and possibly prevent me from buying one. It is a FIND HAUNTED HOUSES directory, not a directory for finding other directories. Seems pretty reasonable to only allow haunted houses to buy or place ads in a find haunted houses directory. Personally I think it is pretty nice of Larry to at least allow competitors to purchase ad spots in his magazine.

Nightmaretony
12-20-2006, 12:38 PM
Now now, boys. Play nice.

RoguesHollow
12-20-2006, 12:41 PM
While I'm not that heavily involved in the policy and business end of hauntedhouse.com I am one of the owners and I can safely say that the most likely reason HauntedIllinois.com was able to get an ad in 2005 was because It was then owned by Michael Cruz. In early 2006 it changed hands to myself, screampass.com and Steve Kopelman. So with new owners come new policies which isn't too surprising and like Larry we're not interested in giving ads to other portals. Why? First off they're not a haunted house, event, festival or attraction. Secondly and more importantly What kind of message does that send to our clients? They buy and ad on our site and then we send the traffic away from our state directory to another portal?! We then force that haunted house owner who's purchased a featured ad banner to either buy an ad on that portal or risk losing a customer because their ad doesn't appear there. that does a disservice to our clients and doesn't help anyone but the portal that paid for the advertisement. We're really more interested in promoting and helping our own haunted house advertisers. It's just common sense.

I can understand Adam's frustration but the reasoning behind it isn't anything personal, its just something that is in the best interest of all haunted house owners out there. It's has really nothing to do with whether we feel threatened or just want to be mean it really just boils down to trying to do what is best for our own haunted house clients.

RJ Productions
12-20-2006, 02:31 PM
Okay,

We now have two non-emotional responses from both parties, Hauntworld and HauntedHouse.com.

Both have explained quite well the reasons behind NOT selling Adam a feature banner. The reasons being business not personally based.

It is quite obvious that both parties have NO grudge against either Adam or his site, supporting it when they can.

This should not only be the end of this debate, but has set presidence for any future involvement with these sites.

Thanks to both parties for clearing things up.

Joedog
12-20-2006, 04:24 PM
Well since it did not tranfer over here from yeahoo forum.
I wil shorten it up some

This is what we call a urination match. The problem Adam has is he picked the owner of a brewry to challenge. And the owner will win everytime. One by restocking "ammo" or two by cutting the challengers ability to make more ''ammo''.


Ok maybe I further explained it... :roll:

steve
12-20-2006, 07:11 PM
I am not partial to any side of this conversation. But I will say a few things.

Larry, For a while Scarefest WAS featured in a banner ad at the top of the directory, so you cant really say that your "weren't allowed" on HI. In fact, as an IL attraction, I wish I had a banner spot like that.

Also, as for traffic agendas etc. One thing I like about HI is the fairness of it. alphabetical order, and featured spots for scream pass. Much like Hauntedhouse.com.

Although I understand "why" the said sites wont allow HI to advertise, as an attraction owner in IL I wish it were allowed... HI provides the public with seasonal, and individual reviews of as many attractions in the area as they can. Adam pays for most (if not all) of these attractions out of pocket, as he almost does it secret shopper style. just shows up, and reviews it based off how he felt he was treated. As an owner I like visitors to be able to see these reviews, as it helps to the deciding of which attraction of visit, and provides a valid insight.

Now i know it has nothing really to do with me, but I as an illinois owner, I almost feel cheated as potential visitors to my show are not (i feel) getting the most comprehensive information possible.

just my 2 cents...

SomeThingInTheIce
12-20-2006, 07:42 PM
Dude, Walmart is not going to send people to Target, it's business.

drfrightner
12-20-2006, 07:50 PM
Steve,

I think the last poster said it best, Walmart doesn't send people to Target.

What you're saying is without any basis what so ever! Why don't you do me a favor next year, open your haunt and on the FRONT page of your haunt put a banner up for your biggest competition!!! Would you do that?

If you did well I think it would go without saying you'd be an idiot! LOL

No you wouldn't do that for good reason. We will NOT put a link up on our directory because his SITE IS NOT A HAUNTED HOUSE, and his site is another paid directory.

If anyone should feel cheated it would be ANY haunted house that advertised with us, and then we sent them off to another website. If it was me I'd DEMAND my money back...period!

Our directory is suppose to send people TO HAUNTED HOUSES, NOT other website with more information. DUH!

I see how Adam has put this post up on basically every message board on the planet, and even on HAM no one agrees with him. Why he can't understand about he's not a haunted house, I'll never know.

He runs around talking about being blackballed, what is he nuts!

If anything he owes us an apology! Seriously! Those are some strong accusations he's made, and they're without merit, and total baseless.

He did not have an ad on my site last year, and he won't have one this coming year either. I have NOTHING against Adam, or his website but he runs a paid directory, not a haunted house, and thats that.

Larry

Jim Warfield
12-20-2006, 07:56 PM
"Apples"= Wal Mart & Target
"Oranges"= Web Sites that offer haunted house information.
Think about it awhile........
How similar? How totally different as far as who views and how long and do people just click on one web site?
Are web ads a viable form of advertising?
I dunno? But then, does anybody really know?
WalMart & Target can measure their patrons in various ways and possibly determine what "works" or doesn't.
I'm all ears......(except for that other part........)

Like Steve just said, Adam does a very good job on Haunted Illinois.com!

steve
12-20-2006, 08:32 PM
Larry, I was merely stating what I thought, I wasnt trying to get personal about it... I guess i just choose to disagree?

as for putting my "biggest competition" on my front page? I would do it, if it were done the same for me. plain and simple. In fact I hand their fliers to almost all my customers...

Another fact... my "biggest competition?" Yeah, I built their website for them...

sometimes people get along? What a weird concept....

DeathReaper
12-20-2006, 08:52 PM
Larry is right!! That's his own official website and his own policy!

I'm beginning to laugh around here... :lol:

Yeah, I will never forget about Adam from HI forum! As well as you too, Steve!! :evil:

DeathReaper
12-20-2006, 09:16 PM
Hey Larry! Lookie who has against your posts here from the other haunt forums below:


Haunted Illinois Message Board
www.hauntedillinois.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1384


Haunted Connection Forum
www.hauntedconnection/forum/viewtopic.php?t=816


BTW, don't feel hard on, Larry! I am NOT one of them anymore! And also, I'm truly sorry if I have to post this topic for Larry on the purpose, you guys from HI or WI either! Too bad!

Nicole
12-20-2006, 09:50 PM
Before anyone says "e tu Brutus..." or Bruttina? ;)

I've subscribed to both magazines (current subscriber to HW) and I do frequent these forums (busy being a mom, not as much as I used too) - Larry has given much PR nation-wide for the industry and that's to be commended... I'm thankful for what he's done.

Having said that, I think it's more sticking up for the little guy (even though in our corner of the world HI is a big guy)...

Adam does it for the passion, and I have no doubt Larry has that passion either - but Adam is not out to make money off of his site, nor does he have any magazines or other business to promote... no other agendas except his pure love of our industry. If anything I am sure he loses money to the maitenence of the site, going to events and covering them for his site. He tirelessly promoted other haunt-going ons in our region (Knowledge 4 The Carnage free haunter-seminars, charity events, etc.).

He is a true-hearted asset to the industry.

Nothing personal, but I think you'll find many of us concerned/speaking out because they don't want to see him squeezed out by the larger search engines (like Wal-Mart has done to local businesses).

I don't doubt anyone can shut him out because in Illinois, he is the #1 place to go to find haunts for that market, just like Hauntedwisconsin.com is for Wisconsin (also run not-for-profit by a wonderful couple that actually donates their ad monies to charity).

It is Larry's site and he can have his own rules... but...

THERE IS ROOM FOR EVERYONE and that is my point... my 2 cents. Not like it's going to change any minds... agree to disagree with me.

PS: in years past we put our major "competition" on our website and they did the same for us - it was called cross-promotion and it brought all of our haunts more business for it. We formed an alliance called "Terror Alley". Nothing but good came from it.

drfrightner
12-21-2006, 02:39 AM
Nicole,

No one is trying to squeeze out anyone, actually comments like that give us meaning Hauntworld and HauntedHouse.com to much credit. When you really think about it we're just small fish a giant massive OCEAN... Notice I didn't say pond. LOL

What Adam is doing is great, for his site, and the haunts who promote there. No one is taking anything away from him what so ever. Not allowing him to advertise on our HAUNTED HOUSE directory is not the end of the WORLD...geeze!

Adam has gone off the deep end and so far about 99% of everyone I've seen post does not agree with his gripe because he has no gripe. He wants to advertise HIS directory that he charges haunts to be a part of, on other peoples directories, which they charge for.

Try and grasp that concept ... one haunt directory is bitching because they can't advertise their haunted house directory on someone elses haunted house directory. Thats absurd!

We have a HAUNTED HOUSE DIRECTORY FOR HAUNTED HOUSES...the people who come to our directory are looking for HAUNTED HOUSES not another directory! Adams bitching and moaning is childish and stupid.

On one hand he says he's got rules against haunts listing on his site that are not in his state, and expects you to abide by them, however he doesn't want to abide by anyone elses rules. He can't tell me what to do with my site, or tell HauntedHouse.com what they can or can't do on their site just as we can't tell him what to do on his site.

I hope this clears up my position on the matter!


STEVE,

Not to take anything away from you buddy, but if you ran a successful business of any type, and you bleed sweat, tears, and piles of money after more piles of money...and finally you built that business into something successful, and then some Johnny Come Latey comes along and wants to build a haunt down the street, rob off your traffic, charge the same as you, get on the radio and say they're the best, even though they've never opened before...

Now if you want to let them put a big giant banner on your front page, and you want to hand out their brochures and promote their business...that's just plain dumb! No and I mean NO business person would ever consider doing such a thing no one. Right now running a haunted house for you might be fun and games, but when you have thousands of dollars invested and you have people who work for you full time year around, and their families depend on your, and your family depends on you, and all the bill collectors depend on you to pay your bills, the last thing you want to do is help someone compete with you. THAT IS JUST DUMB!

Period!

Sure people can be nice, and we're nice, we don't slam other haunts that open in St. Louis, we don't get on the radio and say this or that, we don't try and steal their flyers, or tear down their signs, we don't do any of that...however I'm not going to let some other haunt come onto my parking lot and hand out flyers, or put links on my website, or put a sign up on my ticket booth. Thats just dumb!

If you're doing a haunted house for FUN ... sure I'd do it in a heartbeat. If another haunt owner wants to come over and talk to me, I'm all ears, they want to go through our haunt, sure go for it, but the last thing I'm going to do is tell people on my website that I spent thousands and thousands of dollars promoting and once they get there say ... 'oh while you're hear check out this other haunted house right down the street'. DUMB!

Hauntworld has been and might I ad LONG before HauntedIllinios or HauntedHouse.com been promoting the haunted house industry. I do my very best to promote ALL haunts, big, small, massive or just something in a garage. I feel like its part of my commitment to the industry.

This past year we launched the biggest and most successful PR effort, and gained the industry OVER 15 million dollars in POSITIVE stories. I did this because I care and I hope it helped your haunt and everyone elses.

When people talk about passion, there isn't many who have showed more passion for helping than myself...sorry! Additionally I thank all of those others who have put their passion to work for the industry as well. Good for them! Hauntworld has done nothing but lose money for me year after year after year... I keep doing it because of passion!

I love Hauntworld! I love Haunted Houses! I love Halloween and always have...just because someone charges for some service doesn't mean you don't have passion. Next time you see Scarefactory ask them to give you an animation for passion, for the love of it and see what they say. LOL.

Just because you charge for something doesn't mean you lack passion!

Larry

steve
12-21-2006, 05:52 AM
Im not going to try and argue, I said what i needed, ill leave it at that.

But, to assume that since my attraction isnt at as large of a scale as yours, its just all "fun and games" well that is just rude. Each year we have alot riding on the success of the attraction,, and we run it just as if it were our last dollars riding on it. Its a business, plain and simple. Working with our friends at the other haunts, that works for us, it may not for you... but it does us. perhaps its just the different markets, but up here,what we do works for us.

mindtumor
12-21-2006, 06:18 AM
Competition or not Adams site is not a haunted house and based on that alone it shouldn't be allowed to purchase a banner on a site that is for HAUNTED HOUSES ONLY. Ok if some people think haunted illinois should be able to buy a banner why not Scarefactory or Transworld? Bottom line is it is a haunted house search engine not a page with ads for whoever wants to buy a spot. And besides he allows anyone to buy spots in his magazine so its not like he is blackballing anyone. I would personally complain about the site if I went to look for a haunted house and one of the banners took me to a vendor or someother search engine.

drfrightner
12-21-2006, 11:17 AM
Steve,

First off I was saying your haunted house is just fun and games... I was saying IF your haunted house is for fun and games, or in other words if you didn't care if it made money or not. I hope that clears it up for you.

Secondly, trading links, trading flyers, and all that are great ideas and should be done between haunts, especially if they're in a situation where they're trying to grow the market, or if both are new, or if you're in a market where its very expensive to advertise. Many good things can come from something like that...however I think you missed my point all together.

I'm saying if you're THE established place in TOWN, and someone wants to feed off your success you're just not going to do something dumb like that. Do you think some city landmark eatery is going to promote some new joint that just opened down the street. Do you think MSN is going to say hey we know you're here to use our search engine, but why don't you go to googles instead maybe you'd find better results.

There is a difference if you have THE established haunt in your town, and promoting someone elses haunt who isn't established. In this case, Hauntworld has a lot of traffic, and we share that traffic with EVERYONE...correct? 90% of Hauntworld is links to other website CORRECT? So with that being said we have a haunted house ONLY directory, the last thing we're going to do is send those people who are looking for haunts to another haunted directory...don't you think thats just dumb? Do you think thats what people surfing our directory are looking for is another directory or a haunted house. Which one?

C'mon now...

Either way you have your opinion and I have mine, and I think most agree with what we're saying and not what Adam is saying. When you have a business you make your own rules that help your business, and you don't change them because some other competing website doesn't like them.
At the end of the day though I don't see us as competing, I just see it like he's not a haunted house, and thats not what people surfing those pages are looking for...end of story!

Larry

Nicole
12-21-2006, 11:33 AM
It is your site and you can do what you want. My 2 cents are worth just that - I know I won't change any minds and I wasn't expecting too... Adam just wants to reach out and serve more people through his site and there's nothing wrong with that...

Larry we can agree to disagree.

Kum Ba Yah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFdOCh9ySww

Raycliff Manor
12-21-2006, 12:58 PM
Awesome video Nicole! Thanks for sharing that! :D

Kel

drfrightner
12-21-2006, 01:09 PM
Nicole,

I wasn't disagreeing with you...

Anyway AWESOME VIDEO! LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry

SomeThingInTheIce
12-21-2006, 01:50 PM
Now thats a Christmas story, thanks Nicole

drfrightner
12-21-2006, 02:39 PM
Who ever made that video spent a lot of time and money on it for sure...it was awesome. Does anyone know who made that thing???

Larry

SpFXChic
12-21-2006, 03:10 PM
Larry, apparently it was Direct TV en Espanol....

Nicole, that was priceless! Thanks for sharing!!!

Empressnightshade
12-21-2006, 08:50 PM
"Directv...It's better."

Nicole....
You peacemaker you!
"Blessed are the Peacemaker for they shall be called sons (daughters) of God."

Thanks, Darlin'. :D

DeathReaper
12-21-2006, 09:43 PM
Damn... come on people! I'm tired of seeing there were lots of CMFs, SOBS, and even MBs around here... Well, let this go please!! :lol: :evil:

Haunted Illinois
12-21-2006, 09:46 PM
The discussion WAS over until Jolly Roger came in. LOL

DeathReaper
12-21-2006, 10:50 PM
What the F*** do you expected, Adam?? Or, Steve??

Haunted Illinois
12-21-2006, 11:12 PM
What did I "expected"? Apparently grammar is a problem. LOL. What I expected is not to be cursed at. Let's just follow Nicole's lead and be nice, ok?

Adam

hsmag
12-22-2006, 01:32 AM
Larry,

if you're such a stickler for the rules, allow me to pose this question: since your haunt directory lists haunts by state, then why is YOUR banner for scarefest on EVERY single featured haunt page, REGARDLESS of what state you click on? This is done so that findhauntedhouses.com can promote scarefest and also, on the side, list other haunts for profit. If this wasn't the case, then your haunt would be listed in Missourri ONLY. Surely you wouldn't let another haunted attraction do this. So if you're gonna enforce the 'rules', you might want to enforce them ALL and not pick and choose which ones suit you best.

Jim Warfield
12-22-2006, 07:27 AM
HSMAG,I'm sure that this was a mere oversite.

mindtumor
12-22-2006, 08:35 AM
I don't think there is a rule that you can't purchase featured haunt banners in other states. I know I have read many posts where Larry was trying to tell people that you need to advertise in other states because people are now driving from all over to see haunts.

Steve Verdino
12-22-2006, 08:49 AM
Not to keep this going but I should chime in on this as Jolly has involved Haunted Connection in this topic.

One thing I would like people to understand is that, for years Illinois and Wisconsin haunts and haunt actors were plagued with terrible fighting and bickering that really put a damper on the local haunted attraction industry. All of us have worked very hard to not only end that nonsense but to band together and help promote the industry in whole.

Now, actors and owners for several haunts have a much better relationship. We meet to hangout, share ideas, and just have a good time. Both during the season and in the off season. Most of us have visited each other haunts and share some good times.

Adam has had a HUGE part in this peace (for lack of a better word). So it's not surprising that the actors from Haunted Illinois and the local visitors of Haunted Connection stand up for Adam when he is upset.

We really don't consider each other competition any more. Yeah we still have our stupid bickering sometimes, but now it's more like a family dispute.

I'm not really sure what Jolly meant by "I'm not one of THEM anymore" but whatever, I don't really care.

To the comments about Wal-Mart vs. Target - If they did decide to cross-promote. So what? Do you really think it would make a difference? I still shop at both stores, don't you? My only point is that just because someone decides to go to Haunted House #1, doesn't meant their not going to go to Haunted House #2. In fact, as long and #1 and #2 are both a good show, the customer WILL and DOES go to both. Same goes for websites.

I'm really not taking sides. Our little community of hardcore haunters are really proud of ourselves for the community that we have built. Steve, Nicole, Adam, and myself are part of this. So, yes, we tend to have each others backs.

Not too different from the Haunt World community, which is why so many have stood up for Larry on this topic. It's actually very warming to see. I'm sure one day the 'peace' will continue

DeathReaper
12-22-2006, 11:40 AM
Adam,

I do understand that you have to end this discussion when I came... Well, I have to show a respect and stay out of your way. I will not chaos anymore, so it is between you and Larry only. I shouldn't have come in this first place to cause the problem.

So, leave this to you and others to discuss anything what you wish to say.

dr0zombie
12-22-2006, 11:57 AM
Steve, what you have in Haunted Connection is great and I completely agree haunts (that is) haunt actors / operators should work together. All of that aside, what Larry has is a business decision. Way back to the comment from our elder haunter (in Jim), examples like Haunted Connection are not apples to apples with this situation. Larry has the right to not sell an ad to anyone.... and the situation isn't really all that much of a surprise. It might kind of suck for Adam but its very easy to see where everyone is coming from and agree, in some part, with each viewpoint.

drfrightner
12-22-2006, 02:14 PM
Jolly,

Its not between Adam and Larry...

His beef is with Hauntworld and HauntedHouse.com.

He's upset because neither site will allow him to market on our haunted directories even though he's not a haunted house.

The beef wasn't just with me...just so you know buddy!

Anyway I think everyone pretty much said all that could or can be said...

Most people agree on every site I've seen him post this thread including Haunted Attraction, that he doesn't really have a gripe at all. To wrap it up I don't have a grudge against him, nor am I trying to blackball him, nor do I think he's some kind of threat as he put it, he's just not a haunted house.

We're more than willing to put banners on our site, links on our site and everything else for his site on our site just not in the haunted directory because he's NOT a haunted house. Period!

I do think he kind owes both Hauntworld and HauntedHouse.com an apology, because he said some pretty harsh stuff, and made some pretty harsh accusations that just are not true! Oh well life goes on...

The best thing that came out of this was Nicoles Video...

That was the coolest thing I've seen ever...

Rock on Nicole!

Larry

drfrightner
12-22-2006, 05:22 PM
Yo Jolly,

I removed your link from your profile because it seems like you're spamming...some Halloween 101 gift card whatever thing. Sometimes it seems like you make posts just to get another link up.

Thats a spam type url, the site doesn't belong to you so I removed it from your profile.

Larry

DeathReaper
12-22-2006, 05:35 PM
Larry,

You mean my own site HalloweenMaster's Top 100 Horror?? That's actually my own website. It's a horror topsites for everyone to add their halloween titles, descriptions and banner images as well.

drfrightner
12-22-2006, 07:47 PM
It was a long, long URL seemed like a spam site to me.

In the past you had come onto Hauntworld and posted links to sites you didn't own, I only assumed to promote them like you're being paid.

A lot of spammers join Hauntworld (not saying you) join our message boards, and put urls in their profile because having links on our site help their search engine placement.

Clearly you love Halloween and stuff so I didn't assume you are one of them, but the url seemed like it.

Larry

Nightmaretony
12-23-2006, 03:53 PM
More spam there.

Probably the best bet, allow JR to post, but edit out ALL urls or such names in ANY form? turns out he IS getting paid from some of those websites, so that is a spam gig there. They had been contacted about biz practices and will not exert controls. Just simply have the posts edited for ANY form of links and urls from him, and that should solve the problem. Means that a moderator is needed to do the job in here.

A lot of people have had it for a long time. There has been plenty of chances and no improvements after repeated admonishments. As long as you allow it, he will continually spam this website.

Ken Spriggs
12-24-2006, 06:57 PM
The funny thing about all of this????

Adam has a better listing of haunted houses in Illinois.........And a loyal following.

Larry how much for one of them spots again?
I think we might be buying another one for a sponsor of ours.........

Have a great Christmas!!!

bhays
12-25-2006, 05:29 AM
To the comments about Wal-Mart vs. Target - If they did decide to cross-promote. So what? Do you really think it would make a difference? I still shop at both stores, don't you?

Not to hijack a thread here, but the real lesson we can learn from Wal-Mart vs. Target and apply to our haunts is differentiation. When Wal-Mart began to rise into what it is today, there were plenty of competitors on equal footing..K-Mart being chief among them. So what did Target do differently than K-Mart that led them to continued success where K-Mart ended up in bankruptcy..

Differentiation...that's the key!!!

K-Mart had all the same stuff as Wal-Mart but they couldn't do the same volume to sell the stuff quite as cheap as Wal-Mart and they couldn't afford to stock nearly as much stuff....Target had the same limitations, but they decided to offer a different experience than Wal-Mart..wider aisles, cleaner stores, more helpful staff, designer products, etc. Target thrived, K-Mart filed... Now we see Wal-Mart redesigning all of their locations with wider aisles, etc. to borrow some of Target's model.

Let's all learn this principle and apply it to our haunts....

Merry Christmas!!

Empressnightshade
12-25-2006, 08:34 AM
Differentiation...that's the key!!!



Let's all learn this principle and apply it to our haunts....


Thanks for that, Brett. That's a great lesson to apply!

drfrightner
12-27-2006, 12:48 PM
Whenever possible I go to Target, because the places are nicer, cleaner, the people working are more friendly and Walmart is the evil empire! LOL

Larry

bhays
12-27-2006, 01:41 PM
I actually saw a report on CNN that Wal-Mart had hurt their Christmas sales by trying to be too many things to too many people. They have really jumped into a little higher end consumer electronics lately with quite a few $2500+ lcd tv's etc at our local stores.

The consumers for a lot of those higher end units don't want to mingle with the crowds at Wal-Mart and the high priced items are a turn off to their bread and butter customers.

Find a niche and stick to it...

Greg Chrise
12-27-2006, 06:19 PM
I heard a business report that stated that Walmart ventured into higher end fashions as well and it flopped as the core shoppers are looking for bargains.

This factoid caused me to go into a deep depression that I have become a Walmart shopper. What have I done in my life to deserve this.

Jim Warfield
12-27-2006, 06:39 PM
A little known successful marketing ploy by Wal-Mart was to have numerous of their employees wear Billy-Bob teeth when waiting on customers. It gives an undeniable gut-feeling of "Man! This place MUST have the Lowest prices anywhere! Just look at those terrible teeth!"
It makes you feel sorry for the employees and then you spend more money there, hoping some of it might return to them for a dental plan.
Very sneaky........$$$$$