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xxxdirk
03-06-2009, 10:30 PM
Not sure if I am calling the time of death early, but I was talking to a friend at a booth at Vegas and she said it was terrible there today! She says the vendors were walking around takling to each other for something to do and the saw maybe 50 people at their booth today!

drfrightner
03-06-2009, 11:01 PM
Sad to say but I talked to someone there and they said it is DEAD as a door nob. I heard it is worse than Houston. Two shows Houston and TW isn't a good idea period.

I heard that the show is about 60% smaller than last year...again all around bad news coming out of Vegas.

But on the bright side it was only Friday. The bigger days could be Saturday or maybe even Sunday. So it could get better who knows.

Maybe now these retail shows will realize haunted houses make the show floors look crowded. Let me say this and I'm 110% certain of this... the St. Louis show will be packed and will have more attendance than both the Vegas and Houston shows.

That you can bet on!

Larry

Haunted Illinois
03-06-2009, 11:49 PM
DUH! Like it was some big surprise that the Vegas show would be a bust. LOL.

drfrightner
03-07-2009, 12:15 AM
Yeah when they said Houston was a bust you thought maybe the Vegas show would do better but I guess not. At this point the haunt only show is looking better and better by the minute.

Let the retail industry crash and burn until they all unite and figure out exactly what they want like we have done.

We should rely on ourselves and let them figure out their own mess.

Larry

Kevin Dells
03-07-2009, 06:46 AM
Hey i remember a time that it was really big and LOT'S of people attended!! It was called Chicago!

Yeah we had good times there! Problem was nobody owned a coat so we moved it!

graystone
03-07-2009, 08:35 AM
Lmao! !!!!!!! I was thinking the same thing! Shane and its I saved back enough to buy a coat! Shane this time.

Nightgore
03-07-2009, 08:37 AM
Hell no... unless it's moved more into Spring... it'll be hard to get me to go back to Chicago, as I'm sure other haunters as well! -Tyler

N2SPOOKINU
03-07-2009, 08:49 AM
LOL thats funny guys . I have a coat, I dont mind going to Chicago. Even though St. Louis is much closer and Fearfest is open on Friday nite for the show I would be happy to go to Chicago. WOOHOO Dreamreapers!!!!
Greg

drfrightner
03-07-2009, 08:54 AM
Ah Kevin, that isn't the problem... ET PHONE HOME!

If you don't recall or maybe you didn't attend Vegas last year but that show was PACKED! WALL TO WALL PEOPLE... so how do you explain that one? Oh let me tell you it was called BEFORE HOUSTON!

It was also called ... BEFORE ST LOUIS! IS ET PHONED HOME YET? LOL

Houston was dead, Vegas is dead... those two shows killed each other.

In fact if you didn't know Girls Next Door was even in VEGAS filming for their show...

The problem here isn't the city its the fact that Rubies is tying to cut Transworlds knees off but it looks like they will only get one knee while Rubies cut off one of their own knees.

I think the Vegas show last year was the busiest Transworld I had ever seen personally! It was wall to wall people.

Larry

drfrightner
03-07-2009, 08:56 AM
One a different note do you guys think Chicago is going to solve any problems for TW? You guys are FREAKIN NUTS if you think so wake up!

The problem isn't the city its Rubies and all the other vendors that dumped Transworld and started their own show. No point in being part of a dying show, when you can be a part of your own and very own thriving show.

Larry

Haunted Illinois
03-07-2009, 08:58 AM
I always thought it was funny how people would bitch and complain about Chicago weather during Transworld. Were they really going to let outdoor temps detour them from seeing the biggest Halloween show on Earth (at that time, anyway). If so, they must not be serious about the haunt business. Besides, if you’re that thin-skinned, just buy a coat! Problem solved. LOL.
And I agree with Greg. “WooHoo” for Dream Reapers!

Nightgore
03-07-2009, 09:03 AM
Adam,

Actually, weather and location is a HUGE factor for conventions across several industries... not just ours. If TW did move the hauntshow back to Chicago... I probably would not go... I'd make MHC our main convention; which I wish would happen anyway.

To me... I would move the Hauntshow more south... Orlando? Nashville? Louisville? Atlanta?...

Chicago + Hauntshow = DEAD convention within 2 years! Promise! -Tyler

drfrightner
03-07-2009, 09:07 AM
Adam,

By this time next year I think we are only going to have ONE retail show just one...

Why?

Look around Houston was chopped liver. Vegas is as bad or worse. Rubies didn't go to Vegas and they won't go to Chicago either. Here is what is going to happen, and you can just call me Mr. Prediction...

Rubies is going to do what they did this past year and start calling all the big retailers and tell them 'look there can only be one show, so lets just all get behind Houston'. Retailer vendors will have to take a long hard look at that because they don't want to exhibit at TWO SHOWS!

Then what happens is they tell Transworld thanks but no thanks and then what do you have ... NOTHING a show that is even WORSE!

Here is the other possibilty... Transworld goes to Rubies and works all this mess out with them and Rubies comes back and then you are back to one big show.

One or the other will happen but if Rubies tells Transworld to take a hike then Houston will be the ONLY SHOW NEXT YEAR MY FRIEND!

And we can ALL be thankfull that the haunt industry isn't caught in the middle and has their OWN show in a DIFFERENT CITY!

This will get messy really messy!

We are gone and will stay gone!

TYLER,

I will not go either. I'm done with retail shows. I will only attend a HAUNT ONLY SHOW! It took to much to get our own show and our show will be a successful one we can't go back now. We have our own futures to think about not retail show. I will not go back to Chicago ever again for a retail show... haunt show only or nothing.

Larry

xxxdirk
03-07-2009, 09:45 AM
AAAAUUUUGGHHHH! those of you that are bitching about Chicago, I keep going back and thinking about how busy the convention was there. Larry, you think Vegas was so freaking great in 2008? Maybe but that was 2008, this is 2009, and obviously Vegas was like a fart in the wind. Houston this year sucked according to posts on this board. Also, yeah, the weather in Chicago can be rough in January or even early Feb. If TW moves the convention to late March like this year, the weather in Chicago and St Louis is almost EXACTLY the same. My prediction, TW and Rubies will both understand they screwed up, they will come to terms and realize that they had a good thing going in Chicago and they will be back there with BOTH shows in 2010. I predicted this two years ago, and it will happen.

lurker
03-07-2009, 09:57 AM
So, allow me to make an analogy...I so love making analogies.
It’s like Rubies and all the other retail vendors are our older brother. The older brother finally had enough of mom and dad (Transworld) telling them what to do, so they have moved out of mom and dads basement. This is good news for the haunt industry, the younger brother, cause now we get to have the basement all to ourselves. We can hang our favorite posters on the wall, and dance around in our underwear to AC/DC. The only drawbacks are that we have to still pay mom and dad rent, and well…it is still living in your parents basement. Oh well, crank up the stereo and slip on the Fruit of the Looms cause it is time to dance….just not too loud.

Jolly Pumpkin
03-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Whenever you separate Halloween and Haunts, one is bound to fail. And it's Halloween this time. This really does make the haunt industry look bad since both Halloween and Haunts are associated with each other. Even though the haunt industry has its own show, it doesn't matter. In my eyes this is a bad omen for both industries and I hope the haunt show doesn't have the same fate.

If you think the failure of these Halloween and Costume shows isn't going to effect the haunt industry think again. Once again I think the haunt show will be successful, but I don't think it's going to be half the success it was when it was in Rosemont and Vegas next to the Halloween, costume and party section. I hope I'm wrong. I really do. Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad sign?

Nightgore
03-07-2009, 10:05 AM
Noah,

It's not seperating Halloween and Haunts... WE ARE HALLOWEEN!!! It's seperating the retail crap from the haunt stuff. Our hauntshow is going to be insanely awesome! We don't need the retail, big business BULLSHIT to support the season... people GO TO HAUNTS... they LOVED to be scared... and more and more, it's being called the HAUNTING SEASON instead of Halloween. I mean, we've far surpassed just one day of the year; we're viewed as an entire season... just like Christmas!

Again, we don't need the retail side... let them rot. I'd much rather have people enjoying haunts during the season! -Tyler

graystone
03-07-2009, 10:09 AM
My friend your 21? So at most if you went to TW in Chicago 2 times. I remember once in Chicago it was nice I been going for 8 or 9 years now. Now as far as the weather and I really don't think thats the problem. But would someone tell me If were in Chicago, Vegas, St. Louis, or where ever. I cant seem to recall anyone hanging outdoors in the woods or a tiki bar. Everyone hangs indoors always. So what does the weather have to do with it one damn thing. Now don't jump and say its a travel thing. Most roads are cleared and flights come and go in snow, rain, fog. Shane and its lets stand outdoors in the rain and party! Shane this time

P.S. AMEN NOAH!

xxxdirk
03-07-2009, 10:18 AM
Sorry, those of you saying we do not need the halloween side have been sniffing too much spirit gum. These shows need VENDORS and lots of them to make it worth while to produce. The haunt show will have maybe 100 or so vendors in St Louis. Thats barely enough money to pay for the rental of the facility and marketing and all the other costs. The vendors need a LOT of people to buy stuff from them. The haunt show will be awesome and fun, but if anyone thinks it will be anywhere close to what Chicago was like with the two or three shows all running at once, they are on some serious drugs.

Nightgore
03-07-2009, 10:27 AM
I've snuck in once with family... super easy to do. Hahahaha... but I'll stand by what I said... I will most likely not go to Chicago if the HAUNTSHOW goes back... Chicago SUCKS... with the exception of DreamReapers... I plan to never return. Now, I'm not going to stop my crew from going if they want... but I won't be there.

I don't support haunts... I don't support vendors... I support this INDUSTRY as one massive group! I only support what's good for this INDUSTRY, period. I could give a shit if they moved the show to Tokyo... but I wouldn't support it, it doesn't benefit the industry. Same with Chicago... yeah, you had fun... big show... nice haunts... but it's not nearly as good as what other cities could provide; so I don't support a Chicago move, period. There's no changing my mind so I'm not going to argue it anymore. -Tyler

Jolly Pumpkin
03-07-2009, 10:32 AM
I agree, but it's called The International Halloween, Costume and Party Show and when most people outside of the industry hear haunted attractions they associate that with Halloween. It's always been that way and it always will be. I think it's great that the haunt industry has its own show, but when the press covers this event it will make the haunt industry look bad. They aren't going to explain that there's also a haunt show this year.

They are just going to show the small empty haunt section that is full of booths that have flyers and brochures on the tables. Most people who see that are going to think that the haunt industry is unprofessional and a small industry. I've visited enough haunts to know what casual haunt goers think of the haunt industry and the majority will always visit haunts more during October than September because it's closer to Halloween.

You can't seperate them and think it will work just fine. Why do you think hauntedhouse.com calls themselves the number one Halloween website or why do you think Knotts Berry Farm is called Halloween Haunt. People associate haunted houses with Halloween. Halloween came way before haunts and is one of the big reasons haunts are as popular as they are today. The worst night haunts have for attendance is on Halloween night because people are busy trick or treating, having Halloween parties, etc.

Halloween will always be a much larger industry no matter what and when you seperate the shows something like this is bound to happen. Halloween candy alone makes billions of dollars a year. Like I said before I think the haunt show is going to be successful, but not as successful as when the retail section was apart of it.

Nightgore
03-07-2009, 10:40 AM
I don't think you understood me...

WE ARE HALLOWEEN!!! What I'm saying is that there needs to be a seperation of RETAIL and HAUNTS... Knott's Berry Farm, they don't attend retail shows... they attend HAUNTSHOWS! Well, they attend IAAPA for that matter, but who's getting technical! ;)

Leave the retail show to retailers... Wal-mart, Halloween Express, FindCostumes.com, etc. etc. etc... we don't need that shit and let it rot! We have our own, full blown AWESOME show that's going to be cool as hell!

We are Halloween! Halloween is about getting scared and having fun... not buying candy and blues clues costumes!

And don't even bring up how they're the bigger side of the industry and make more money. Again, think about this... who is the demographic of the retail side? Haunt side?

It's like comparing Cedar Point to Disneyworld... two different industries, two different goals... different audiences! We can examine this for days but it all comes down to us... THE HAUNTS!!! -Tyler

graystone
03-07-2009, 10:44 AM
Hopefully we will see the return of Halloween and Haunt! I am 1000000% for it. Tyler my friend if you dont go just because its in Chicago then all I can say is. You will be the only one that want go. Well maybe along with Larry I seem to remember him saying he want go either. I did not want St. Louis but after thinking about it I am going and am being supportive although I have my opinions I mean Drama about it. Shane and its yes Tyler just like me you will go! Shane this time.

Jolly Pumpkin
03-07-2009, 11:11 AM
The last time I checked Halloween was about costumes and candy. It's not just about being scared and having fun. That's part of it. It's about tradition, becoming someone else for one night and enjoying candy that brings back memories of when the world was safer and it was fun being a kid. Halloween is about the seasons changing.

Halloween would do just fine without haunted houses. Yes, it wouldn't be as enjoyable and profitable, but it would survive. But the haunt industry wouldn't be in as good of shape without Halloween. You can have two separate shows for retail and the haunt industry, but when they aren't together they aren't as successful. There are haunts out there that buy stuff from the retail side and haunt side.

mindtumor
03-07-2009, 11:14 AM
So basically Tyler you are saying if you don't get your way and the hauntshow doesn't go to a Tyler approved city then you are going to throw a temper tantrum and stay home? Who cares? I didn't like it when they moved the show to Vegas but I went. If it moves to Orlando, which I don't want, I will still go. Do you want to know why? Because I don't cry like a baby when I don't get my way. I don't talk out of both sides of my mouth and scream "We need to support our vendors, we need to do what is best for them!!" like some people around here and then threaten to not attned any show if I don't get my way.

Also Tyler do you realize you are on here telling lots of people that have actually owned and operated haunts for years what is best for them and the industry? You haven't ever ran your own haunt and only this year do you claim to own one and it doesn't even sound like it is your haunt, it sounds like some older guy plopped down a million dollars and bought one.

When Larry or Ben or Shane or anyone else that has owned and operated for years speaks up about issues like the show it is different then when you rehash what they have already said.

Also think about this if say someone like Larry, Ben, Shane(for example not specifically) says "We need OUR OWN SHOW! Lets make it happen and get our vendors cheap pricing on booths because that is what we need, LET'S DO IT PEOPLE!!!" and then he/she finds out it is going to be in Pittsburg or something and then he/she says "Well I am not going because it is in Pittsburg and it is cold and there is nothing to do" would you think he actually has the industries best interests at heart or would you think he/she is pouding because it is somewhere he/she doesn't want to go? (None of them said this it is just an example) To me that person would lose all credibility.

This isn't an attack on you or an insult to you. I realize you think you know everything about this industry but you don't. Getting ready to run an attraction and then actually doing it are real eye openers. I thought I had it all figured out before I opened the first time, I had taken business classes, I had run a hayride for 3 years, I had been on this board, I had read books, I had talked to other owners, and I had a passion for it. I worked really HARD. Then I opened and have ran for a couple of years and today typing this I realize I only know about 10% of what I need to know. I view things differently from only after 2 years as well, I can't imagine what my thoughts are going to be like after 5, 10, or 15 years. Most of our problems are capital problems, so if you actually have a million dollar backing you might have a leg up there.

I say we all see how this St. Louis show is going to go, I think it will do well, and then learn from it. Use the experience to continue to grow this show and have it be the best for the industry no matter where it is.

As far as Vegas and Houston in my opinion(which doesn' t mean much) those shows probably suffered simply because it is two different shows on the heels of one another. I highly doubt those shows are suffering because a bunch of haunted houses aren't there. But who knows.

Nightgore
03-07-2009, 11:35 AM
Jared...

I'm not saying my company won't go... I just won't go as a buyer! Also, treating and talking to someone like a child and throwing out the insults only makes yourself look pathetic. I can hold my own and I've been WORKING in this industry for close to 5 years now, 3 years on a DECISION making level. I know what I'm doing and I take it very seriously...

As for my business... you don't know anything about it. 50% of the company is mine... I've put a few hundred thousand into, and yes, I worked for it. I don't have to explain myself to you or this industry... nor do I expect anyone to just "take my word for it". Yes, I'm a young guy... but trust me, I know ALOT more than you think and will be doing a much
better show that what's expected. (yes, in my first year of ownership)...

I don't have to "pay my dues"... I've been busting my ass in this industry for a long time... and yes, I know what it's like to run a haunt... a nightmare! But I love it; that's why we all still do it.

I'm not crying, whining and throwing a fit about a hauntshow move to Chicago... I just really don't think it's the best move for the industry. It's my own opinion... so f*ck off if you don't agree! Me, I'd LOVE to see it in Orlando, Atlanta, Nashville, Birmingham, etc. etc...

NO, I don't know everything about this industry... no one does. Not Ben... not Shane... not Larry... and no, not you. This industry is too vast that no one will EVER know everything... still though, if you only know 10% after years of owning a haunt, then I don't know what to say. I'd say that about 27% of this board know at least 60% of what they need for this industry.

So, I'm leaving this thread... it's not worth my time nor the arguement; and I'll say it again... if the HAUNTSHOW moves back to CHICAGO (and it's still winter) I will NOT attend the show as a BUYER! Period. You want to talk more about.. call me or send me an email or pm. -Tyler

spookologist
03-07-2009, 11:43 AM
First of all, after reading the posts on this topic it seems like a very healthy debate, not a name calling one....congrats.

With that said. here is my opinion for what its worth.

If the retail, Halloween, party and the haunt industries could all work together, I think that would be great. I really don't think that will happen again.

I totally believe the haunt industry could take over and stand on its own, big-time. As I said before, I would love to see The Haunt Show, MHC, HauntCon and some of the others join together as one big Haunt Show in March. I think the guys from all the haunt shows and a 3rd party, Transworld (or whoever) should get together and work things out, but this show needs to be early. I suggested awhile ago that if one of these shows were to step up they would have become the Haunt show. They all do such a great job on their own, imagine if they were all together. The haunt vendors would spend money improving their product lines rather than traveling to all these different shows. Its a win-win for everybody involved. If this were to happen I don't care where it is located, Chicago in March wouldn't be as bad as January but it wouldn't be my top choice.

Who knows, since the retailers are having such a hard time maybe they'll want to work with us haunters for a change. Besides, unless you have a retail store, most of the stuff at the retail show is Walmart, Spener Gifts crap and why would you have that in your shows anyway.

The Haunt Industry- we're saving Halloween. It has a nice ring to it.:rolleyes:

Wayne
www.trailofterror.com
http://gallery.trailofterror.com

The Doctor
03-07-2009, 11:48 AM
All this retai...haunt stuff is fairly comical...since I would say almost every professional haunt has a gift shop in it. I mean last time I checked no one was selling animatronics in their haunts they were selling retail merchandise. Two three four shows all doing the same thing is bad. A few shows with different feels and purposes is good. I have not been going to many Transworlds, but loved Chicago not because it was Chicago but because I could walk and see so much stuff centered around Halloween. I mean when my wife gets me out to the Mall I don't just go to the Game store, I visit a few stores with no intention of purchasing but then again sometimes I see that "item" I just have to have.

A big all encompassing show that treats both Haunts and Retail with Equal respect is a good thing for both. It gives the haunter a chance to find a good price on some retail merchandise that fits their gift shop, or maybe make a contact that can make those T-shirts you been wanting to sell for a price you can afford. The actor finds just the costume they were looking for, or the retail store finds a simple prosthetic that they can sell in their shop. Why does it have to be us against them? I think a bigger show that offers more is never a bad thing as long as everyone's needs are met. Exclusion rarely produces the best outcome...

mindtumor
03-07-2009, 11:53 AM
What insults Tyler? I pointed out exactly what you said about what you are going to do if you don't get your way and then gave my opinion on what that sounds like. I told you right in the post I wasn't trying to insult or attack you. I had two points in that post one was people talking out of both sides of their mouth, which has happened on this subject for the last TWO years, and the other point was how much you learn and how your opinions start to change after owning your haunt no matter what the size of it is. Obviously, you feel much different about what you read then what the intent was. What I was doing is called debating YOUR arguments. You gave your opinions on the show based on what? Whether you think it is an insult or not your opinions on this industry and what you believe you need to grow your show are going to be a constantly changing and growing thing as operate your show, not someone elses. If you can't handle having your comments being debated and discussed then don't post them. Surly, you don't think you can say whatever and it won't be questioned. Do you not question what other people say sometimes? Do you just take for granted that whatever someone on here says is good sound advice coming from a person that has experienced exactly what they are trying to tell you what to do? Or do you just expect me to say "Whatever person xyz says must be what you are suppose to do".

As far as you saying me insulting you shows what type of person I am, keep this in mind I didn't insult you and I didn't call you names and I certainly didn't throw some profanity your way like you did me. What I did do was question the statements you made about you seeming to know what is best for everyone and what you were going to do if things didn't go the way you think they should go. I even went as far as to say I didn't have enough experience and knowledge to say what is the best for the industry. And I certainly won't be insulted when someone says I haven't be around long enough to be telling people constantly what they should and shouldn't do and what is best for them and the industry. I will say "Yeah your right, I don't".

And if you feel insulted by this rebuttal I am MORE THAN WILLING to clarify my statements to you or anyone else.

swampboy
03-07-2009, 12:58 PM
For what it is worth, I am here at the show right now in Vegas. If you want an opinion then find me at TW and I'll tell you about it.

Here are a couple points of info:

1) The 2010 HCP Show is at the Rosemont in Chicago - its publicized and you can reserve your booth today Feb 26 to Mar 1. There is no info about it being anything other than HCP again - so none of the info suggest haunts will be with it next year. (Just reporting the fact and not suggesting it couldn't change or that this is the best way to do it.)

2) Noah is correct, the "Haunt Pavillion" at HCP 2009 is just tables with business cards/brochures on them. No one I spoke to at the show suggested anything negative about the Haunt business but rather focused on TW for splitting the shows.

I've talked to over half the vendors about the show and their thoughts but don't really want to re-hash on a forum since it is just people's opinions but many are very concerned about the economy and that seemed to be more on their mind than this show or that show.

spookhaven
03-07-2009, 01:12 PM
Well guys, I opened our haunt in 2007 and took the leap into the fire and opened a Halloween store separate from the haunt in 2008. It was a CRAZY leap/idea to say the least. But the store helped the haunt by increasing traffic, got us some great help, and people haven't stopped talking about both sides of it (thank goodness). So, I have to support that they go hand in hand.

I am at home and did not attend Vegas (or Houston). What's funny is atleast 3 times a week I was getting calls from Transworld telling me not to forget to register which tells me they were promoting heavily for one reason or another. Vendors from Houston are giving different reviews. AND THE FUNNY ONE is that my Rubies rep. called me yesterday to say they will have their show room open in New York this weekend to come up and visit. Which typically means the rest of them up there are open also. They have been open no less than 4 times now since December. They even opened for the Toy Show 2 weeks ago. What is this telling us? Retail is in some trouble.

It was my first year in 2008 attending the Haunt/Retail show in Vegas. Some vendors ignored us when they saw our tags said haunted house, but when I told them we were opening a store, they turned around and listened.

I decided that my haunt was more important with the economy the way it is and my group is attending St Louis. I can pick up the phone and reach all the vendors to get new catalogs. But we all must admit that seeing merchandise in person is the best way to make the decision and the haunt vendors definately bring the WOW to the shows.

I think we all need to realize that our industries go together to some degree. Haunters are just much more passionate about Halloween and put our blood, sweat, heart and souls into it. MOST retailers are just spending money in the hopes to make more money.

So I being on both sides, support a rejoining of the shows no matter where it's held. But will always follow the Haunt Show First! I think us standing strong will show them how powerful of a group we are and make a big part of the retail business. Because without us having our haunts/corn mazes, etc, people wouldn't be getting into the Spirit of Halloween until days before Halloween.

The Parker House
03-07-2009, 01:52 PM
I would just like to say, as much as I liked seeing the new retail items and rubies great costumes. I think the two shows can get along separate but could also work together to make for a much better show. If the booth cost stay affordable for the smaller haunt vendors why wouldn’t they want to be at a show with both? That would more then triple the opportunities to sale there product. I also agree there should only be one show. ONE BIG SHOW affordable to all vendors. That’s the win win.
Also I need to say, don’t be fooled. We need the Halloween retail much much more then they need us. I don’t know about your town but in the Dallas area I am able to set up ad campaigns in more then 65 store front locations strategically placed around our city. ABSOLUTLY FREE!!! This is called Party City, Cow Halloween, Spirits, etc. etc.
My point is. If it wasn’t for all these stores opening up and reminding everyone in Sep. that its Halloween again. Then our haunts would do considerably less people.
Sure, we would still get that 10% that look forward to Halloween all year and hit 4 or 5 haunts around there city no mater what. I don’t know about anyone ells but I can’t open my doors for only 10%.
So we need to be just as concerned for the retail part doing well as we are with the Haunt part.
Face it, we need them to do well, much much more then they need us to open our doors.

drfrightner
03-07-2009, 04:26 PM
Couple of issues to consider...

Retail shows cost more. Rosemont cost more. Our vendors for years paid retail price on tradeshows... Transworld retail party show cost more per booth than IAAPA and IAAPA had 4 times the buyers. Retail shows in general are more expensive.

We are not a retail industry we are an attraction industry. We have nothing in common other than the fact we like looking at the cool Halloween junk. But for the most part we don't buy anything.

Exactly the reason they didn't want you there, a reason I can actually understand and agree with... this is why you have your own show now.

One of these two shows Houston/Transworld is going under for sure... after this mess with both shows having little to no attendance one is going down. If Transworld show survives great, if not doesn't matter.

We have our own show one where the vendors can save money on booth costs, hotels, food and travel. Haunted house owners also want better deals, more products developed, then you need your vendors to realize some saving as well.

Lets not be selfish because we want to look at some Halloween stuff.

Do we really want to be in the middle of this turmoil or just wrap your fingers around your own show? Think about it!

Larry

MDKing
03-07-2009, 04:54 PM
I wish it were as simple as just buying a coat. Coats I have many of. You Chicago guys figure out how to get a coat on the planes and stop the bad weather so flights don't get delayed or cancelled alltogether and Chicago is fine. We've been there and done that I thought....

Allan

graystone
03-07-2009, 07:06 PM
Hey TransWorld what about this.

1- Move them back together 1 show 1 headache!
2- Keep the price as usual for retail and charge the haunt section a better rate? Maybe even increase the booth price on the retail side and let the extra go towards the Haunt Vendors.
3- Supply coats for those who don't own one and think Chicago is to cold.
4- Have a web feed from the show floor for those who will not attend whether it be as a vendor or a buyer.
5-Offer buses that will go from Chicago to St. Louis so the Darkness tour can be an annual event.
6-Offer TransWorld food stamps for those who think it cost to much to eat in Chicago. Because no one knows how to shop around for a good meal at a cheap price.
7. Have a booth reserved for vendors that want attend so we can go to their websites and order online. I mean its apparent most don't own computers or would just do that from home anyway.
8- Just keep the retail vendors that don't want haunters vendors there out of the show.
9- Just keep the haunt vendors that don't want the retail vendors out of the show.
10- Offer an awards dinner and offer awards to the vendors/buyers who cry the most, know the most, does the most, things like that!!!

These are just my ( Shane's) opinions but I think its the best thing and seems to have covered all of the concerns brought fourth. Shane and its Another great post by me. Shane this time!!

Matt Marich
03-07-2009, 07:22 PM
I just came back this afternoon, and I will say it was pretty slow yesterday, ( Friday.) There were alot of one booth vendors at the show, and instead of, for example, seeing 6 feather booths, there was only one. Strange to see big vendors bow out due to Rubie's Pide Piper effect. With the economy the way it is, the real factor will be next year to see who will survive. The shows, including the Haunt Show, may have to unite for the sake of cost, if not business. Rubie's doesn't even need any of the two shows, they are assasinating the industry and brigging down the competition, they are a spitefull and disgusting corperate bully. They make their money with private showings, and it was them that dictated to TW to remove the Haunter's. They didn't like the attention being stolen from them. And like a spoiled little kid, they took their ball, some of the best players, and ran away.

Matt Marich
Edge Designs

graystone
03-07-2009, 07:49 PM
Exactly right! Hell why not say piss on Rubies and make this the best Halloween/Haunt show in the world!! It can be done! It should be done! It will be done!! Well hell 2 out of three aint bad lol! Shane and its is this thread turned into Drama yet? Shane this time!

drfrightner
03-07-2009, 10:16 PM
We don't need a Halloween Haunt show... we need a Haunt Attraction show. Shane you can talk until you're blue in the face, but haunted houses and Halloween retail have NOTHING in common. NOTHING!

I love Halloween and I like Halloween stuff for my HOUSE!

We need a bigger and better ATTRACTION SHOW!

Lastly, the cost of booths for the retail show was something like $1900 bucks and this haunt show is 1200 bucks. This saves the vendor 700.00 per booth. Do we care more about seeing Halloween costumes, feathers, wigs and whatever else or do we can about insurance, ticket systems, food suppliers, theming equipment, animations, monsters, monster costumes, blah, blah.

I think you get the point.

If the show was to re-unite and go back to Rosemont I wouldn't go. Our industry would have taken a major mile backwards. We would be shooting ourselves right in the foot.

As per what Allen said, I agree. A few times we tried to drive into Chicago in March we almost got killed because of ice and snow. Several times flights are cancelled because of horrid weather. Face it Chicago has bad weather. Period. Now they are saying they will move the show into February... HELL NO!!!!! Count me out.

Larry

SomeThingInTheIce
03-07-2009, 10:39 PM
Chi town in February, why not have it on the North Pole.lol.

Motograter
03-07-2009, 11:08 PM
I think March is a good time to host Transworld. The winter weather is turning over to spring and all the snow begins to melt away. The outdoor temperatures feel much better out which puts people in a better mood. Just my 2 cents :)

graystone
03-08-2009, 08:40 AM
I am going to kindly disagree with you Halloween Retail and Haunted Houses have alot in common. Let me ask you this when you started off many years ago where did you get your decorations? I opened my first haunt in 1990 the only things I could find were in places like Wal-Mart, K-mart, Spencers, places like that looking back I laugh and say wow that was kinda cheesy but then I say how could it? I did not have anything to compare it to. Larry other than purchase things for your gift shop much like me ( I own costume/party shops but I will leave it out of this and keep it to the ownership of my haunt) you have no use for the Halloween Retail right?

Now what about the little guys? the home haunters? those charities starting out fund raisers ect. They dont have the budgets that you or I have or any other professional haunt. But hey you got to start somewhere and thats where they need to start. They cant go to a haunt only show and buy what major haunts buy. They can however go buy what they need to start off and say maybe next year we can purchase more in the Haunt section. Its a way of working up very few start off with a ton of money they start small put love, blood, and sweat into it and build up from there.

Paul told me they spent more last year in the retail section than they did in the Haunt section. They focused alot on retail and makup things like that. I may have over looked it but I have not noticed anyone that sells make up there well I take that back Morris will. But Morris buys it from the same companies we can buy it from.

Bottom line if these big retail stores had not offered us Halloween retail there would have never been a need for this industry. We went we bought and then the Haunt Vendors were born. Shane and its yes Virginia I feel they compliment each other! Shane this time!

Kevin Dells
03-08-2009, 08:40 AM
Larry and Gang,

What i was simply implying by what i posted was it all seemed to fall apart when they moved it out of Chicago,period.

Let's say that hadn't moved it at all and it had been in Chicago the past two years,would there ever be this much ranting about it, probably not it would still be the kick ass TW it had always been.

As soon as that decision was made to move it all the other shows popped up trying to draw the crowds that TW left behind(hence Houston and it's empty aisles).

I talked to a lot of people that did attend Vegas because yes in fact i knew it would be more expensive to attend than in Chicago and sure enough there were some big complaints, Expense to begin with, how far some people had to walk to get from hotel to the convention even though they were right next to it.(Vegas hotels are freggin huge hence more walking).

Haunt tours they said were very lame, the afterhour party was basiclly non exisitant, and lack of being able to get into costume which im sorry if you don't care for it Larry people do like to do as part of the festivity's and to promote themselves and thier haunts.

Had it been left in Chicago im not going to say it wouldn't have died off like it did,but even if you took Rubie's out of the equation in Chicago i really don't think it would have made a dam bit of difference, it would still be a steadily growing show and not flayling in the wind like it is today.

The thing is nobody could have perdicted what was going to happen with this economy like it is, but maybe had we left it alone it might have survived even without Rubie's.

Haunting and TW go hand in hand it's like one big ass family that love to show our freaky side and party along with it! When Aunt Marge decides she's going to have the reunion after ten years of Aunt Jane's been holding it with great results the family has no choice but to split off and go to seperate reunions, some won't attend either just because they think the family fueding is BS, soon after the whole family's fueding and choosing sides and everybody's pissed off at each other.

We didn't stop having the reunion because Rubie's didn't bring the potatoe salad, we stopped attending because they split the family.

screamline studios
03-08-2009, 09:02 AM
My opinion is keep both shows together!! I would go on a limb and say having more shows only make it more difficult to attend all of them as a vendor or a consumer.I really dont care were it is but make it fair for all.

Jason Blaszczak

http://screamlinestudios.com

Barry
03-08-2009, 09:29 AM
Wow, there are a bunch of very interesting threads! Larry, any chance we can get them all combined? LOL

The real question here, and one that nobody has addressed yet, is whether or not TW, as a business entity, can afford to do the Haunt Show as a stand alone venture. At the end of the day it is not about how many people are there, it is not about where the show is, it is about whether or not Transworld Exhibits makes enough money on the show. Only Transworld can answer this question. Until they do answer it after this year (or maybe next year) all of these discussions are really moot.

Kevin Dells
03-08-2009, 11:52 AM
See guys TW back in Chicago a few years ago was an awesome dam time for me and my crew, we saw and bought all the latest gadgetry, browsed and ordered make up aisles (which is a huge part of what we do in haunitng,ordering a seasons supply of make up for a 100+acting crew is no joke!), and then got dressed up and celebrated the off seasons biggest gathering.

I truly wish even Chicago could have been more affordable to crews and not just owners(thats where i think MHC rocks). To have your senior staff along while browsing the aisles is truly a huge help when it comes to the time to go home and build what you purchased into your haunts.The seminars were just way to pricey,never saw acting seminars which for a LOT of owners is incredibly valuable information.

When we attended TW chicago we brought anywhere from 20-25 people along, included were builders, make up artists, costume people, and even a few of our best actors because when we returned EVERYBODY was excited and everybody wanted to build like Mad Dogs and get ready for the new season. We would all meet up in our midway and empty the contents of our goody bags out onto the tables so people who couldn't attend would get excited and want to pitch in.

I remember our first year at TW only the owner went and he bought a prop that we couldn't even fit into the haunt via the doors... we were like WTF! Had i been standing there i would have told him yeah it's nice but it won't fit, thing is the guy was a great bussinessman but he couldn't read a tape measure!

Lastly, we all use our upper managment and go to people to get our haunts up and running,Make up managers, Builders, lead actors and so on, so why would it be so hard to have a convention thats geared to EVERYBODY on the haunt staff if they wanted to attend. I love the Haunters section and all the gadgetry of TW but at the same time i love what Barry's doing with MHC and gearing it a lot to stuff like make up wars, and masquerades and Ms.Scary pageants.

Because if you brought the crew we used to bring there would be something for everybody to do and see, all those extra people results in spending money,period!

Im going to end this in a memory of TW. It was saturday night 3-4 years ago in the hotel across the street from the Rosemont, the after party was in full swing but a freind and I needed to drop of a few things to our rooms after guest acting at dreamreapers. I come back downstairs and theres my best buddy JD with a cocktail in his hand(to young to drink but hey he wasn't driving).

JD is sitting there talking to Nick the Pirate from Emerson who was also pretty ripped and Screech and his fiance also in conversation mind you Nick was talking in his pirate voice and JD was using his hillbilly voice. Talk about a site to see and that was just one of the many,many memories from TW. Thats why im so upset they moved it, we HAD an awesome thing going! It was a family reunion that happened once a year the only exception is the family was compleley INSANE!

Motograter
03-08-2009, 11:58 AM
Shane, I know what your talking about..Our very first year we bought items from Halloween USA stores and Wal-mart. It's all we could afford, but we made it work. Now we look back at all that and just laugh. I believe most of that stuff ended up in the dumpster and I must say it helped us build our way up. Now we are buying from TW vendors or making the props on our own because we are learning the tricks of the trade.

Boo Crew Production
03-08-2009, 12:34 PM
All I want to say on this mater is, Why has Rubies dumped transworld? Think about it.

Is it because Transworld Exhibits doesn't do what they say? Is it because they don't promote it like they should?Is it because they drop the ball when it is in their court?

I say, lets make the haunt industry show a show that is run by haunters not an outside entity. Why should we give our funds to a company that cannot or will not listen to what the industry needs as a whole.

Lets get real here, the haunt industry isn't all that big. Why does it need all these major shows? Is it because everyone wants a piece of the pie? Does it go to build someones ego?

The more shows that are out there the more the cost of haunting rises. Why?
Well from a vendors aspect they have to throw between 5 and 10 thousand dollars at each show, who do you think eats that cost? The buyers of coarse.
From a buyers aspect, buyers have to pay to attend all these shows, time off work (cause most of us have real jobs), travel expense, hotel, and food, and lets not forget pay the jacked up prices for props because the vendors have to cover their expenses.

Example:
For my company to attend 6 shows and shuck out 5000 per show that would be like adding a full time employee getting paid 15 bucks and hour for a year to sit on his duff and do nothing.

Another example:
say a company builds 200 props a year, to attend 6 shows would add at least $150.00 per prop.

Things to ponder.

drfrightner
03-08-2009, 12:55 PM
Kevin,

You are wrong about your statement... Rubies bailing on Transworld has nothing to do with moving out of Chicago. In fact, the retail vendors wanted the show to move out of Chicago, not stay there.

Everyone was sick of the weather, the unions, and the high costs.

The show was moved to Vegas in part because it needed to move.

When the Houston show started they cited WEATHER as one of the MAJOR reasons why they should attend that show over Transworld.

Look at it this way as well... Transworld announced last year they would move back to Chicago then changed their minds and stayed in Vegas. Vegas was a better option for them to compete with Houston.

I have been attending this show for over 15 years more than almost anyone I know in this whole entire industry. My first show was 1994. I have been to them all and I know all or most of the major retail vendors.

So you can all assume to know what the problems are but most of what you guys are saying is wrong.

The main reason for Rubies leaving was over money, the felt Transworld made to much money. Rubies and many other vendors wanted massive changes and when that didn't happen they parted ways. I can tell you from everything I know it wasn't over the city.

In fact last last year when Transworld announced they where going back to Chicago every single RETAIL vendor I talked to said NO FREAKIN WAY are we going to Chicago in January. Transworld finally backed off and went back to Vegas.

Bottom line is CHICAGO SUCKS for conventions especially in the winter...its expensive, its cold, its heavy union.

Bottom line is most of you are being thoughtless especially you SHANE... you are not a haunt vendor you are not paying the drayage bills, the high costs of booth space.

This isn't about you SHANE... this is about what is best for EVERYONE especially the vendors. Lowering costs is something this industry cries for you want cheap animations, you want discounts, you complain about hotels, food, you complain about almost everything.

Seriously!

There is no perfect situation just the best option to meet the mass majority of needs.

This industry is so damn backwards because its like leaderless, no central group speaking for the industry, to show clear directions. Hopefully this is where HHA comes in...

The members voices their opinions, membership is polled, and a single group can speak for eveyone. On person or a couple people who just like to post over and over and over again do not speak for anyone but themselves.

The whole industry needs to be polled and this will happen I assure you.

HHA going forward should lead the charge on whateve our industry wants as a WHOLE not one person who cries every five seconds.

This industry is about hundreds of small business owners and operators. HHA will hopefully put them all into one group and find out what the industry wants.

That is what should happen but ONLY AFTER the show.

We have to find out how the show goes and go from there.

Larry

drfrightner
03-08-2009, 01:06 PM
Ken,

You said the haunt industry isn't really all that big? What do you consider big? The haunt industry includes every single haunted house and Halloween attraction in the WORLD! How big do you think that is Ken?

I can tell you!

Over ONE BILLION DOLLARS was spent last year in the United States alone visiting Halloween attractions, meaning buying a ticket to an ATTRACTION! How much bigger do you want it to get?

Did you know that vendors in this industry some of them sell as much as 50% of their products overseas? Now you wouldn't know that because while you and others screw around at a Halloween retail show, or sitting here fighting about stuff other companies who are SERIOUS went to IAAPA and found new costumers. I've said before and will say again, IAAPA is a show that could be more benefical to your business than any of the shows or all shows combined. Its your choice to attend a horror convention, or a retail show or whatever because you let your passion get in the way of reality not mine.

Do you know how many haunted houses are being built all across the World? Do you know there is now over 300 amusement parks who do haunted houses? Do you know they don't built these things themselves they hire people do supply them. You are missing out because at a RETAIL SHOW there is NO ATTRACTION BUYERS! DUH! At a retail show there is no buyers for HIGH END $10,000 animations... DUH! They are RETAIL we are ATTRACTION!

Universal Studios all by themselves grosses well north of 50 million dollars. Netherworld did over 75,000 guests, why don't you tell them its not that big. Home haunters now are spending millions of dollars to build their haunts and some claim to attract over 5,000 people to see their displays a night. Why don't you tell them its not that big.

Haunted houses spend more money on advertisement, get more national and local PR than the retail industry... National Geographic, Travel Channel, HIstory Channel all did haunted house shows. Tell them its not that big anyway.

Dude keep comments like that in check, or I should say get some facts before you start making comments like that.

I think my point here is that Ken this industry is A LOT BIGGER THAN YOU THINK and it deserves its own tradeshow. PERIOD!

We are not lost lambs, we are the wolves chasing the lambs. Now these retail shows realize what roll we played with their attendance, eating up booth space and more.

Now we are gone and look what happened. Now I hear the Houston show is trying to talk to haunters to see if we'll attend their show next year when before they said they didn't want us.

Look how things change.

We don't need them! We will forge on on our own without their crap. If you want to see Batman costumes go to the show, if you want to see Halloween Attraction owners and operators you'll come to an ATTRACTION SHOW its how it should be!

Larry

xxxdirk
03-08-2009, 01:47 PM
Larry, everyone, I think we all are going to have to just wait and see how big the convention will be in St Louis. Again, at the expense of repeating myself, we, as a viable convention are small beans in the scheme of things. I mean, 150 booth is nothing compared to the number of booths that TW is used to dealing with. How much does a booth at St Louis cost? $3000? Multiply that by 150 booths thats a little less than 500,000. How much does it cost TW to rent the building, pay for electric , advertising, and everything else, and I really wonder how much TW is going to make off this convention. Nope, my guess is TW will either combine the two conventions back together, or drop the haunt show because it's just not worth it.....

mindtumor
03-08-2009, 01:56 PM
If there is one thing I have learned in life it is not everyone is going to agree with what you think no matter how much evidence you have to support your argument. The people who want the shows to combined aren't going to be convinced that they shouldn't be combined, the people who don't want the shows to be combined aren't going to be convinced that they should be combined, and not everyone is going to agree on a location for the show. Keep in mind not everyone's wants and needs are going to be the same and you are going to tend to form an opinion on this based upon your own needs. There is no sense in getting anyone's blood pressure elevated over it right now.

The haunt show is only 3 weeks away, or something like that, lets just let the show happen and see how it goes. Then afterwards once all the feedback and information is processed, we can start to make cases for change, or cases to remain the same, or cases for location.

drfrightner
03-08-2009, 02:08 PM
Jared I agree with you 110%.

Ron, the show is set up for 280 booths but as of right now its not sold out. FYI... Fun Expo a show that has been going on for year is about that 280 booth show. The association that owns the show reportedly takes in a $280,000 profit for the association itself, and that is before the management company makes all their money and fees. Its probably a $500,000 profit for all parties involved and again its only a 280 booth show more or less.

There is money to be made that I assure you. However down the road I think Transworld should charge the buyers to attend the show.

We simply do need to just see how this goes and then figure it out from there... I hoping for a huge success. I do not think it will be all I hoped for because there are many more vendors out there we can go after and that is exactly what "WE" as an industry will have to do.

I think 2009 will only be the tip of the iceberg.

Larry

Kevin Dells
03-08-2009, 07:14 PM
Lary,

Your very right i saying what you did.

But TW ending in Chciago was to me an ending freindship to very close freinds i had within the industry or at least the start of it. I as of last season actually retired from haunting after 8 seasons for two different haunts.

Not being an owner but one of the upper managment for both haunts i had the chance to meet vendors and learn their products, i ran make up departments learning the different types of materials was very important to my ordering.

I built all year long for both Rockford Screamfest in Illinois, and Woods of Terror in Greensboro N.C. So knowing different types of building materials (Oak island and such) was very important as i had to build knowing what was available and how it worked before a wall or nail ever went up.

It kicks my ass to walk away from this industry but family matters come first and thats what i did walked away,but i stay very connected to guys like xxxdirk who i actually help consult his haunt and even some of his purchases. Ron and I became very good freinds through TW/Knowledge for the Carnage and Screamfest.

I am very proud of my accomplishments, i would have never thought i would ever become so addicted to anything as haunting, i love all aspects of it except the drama of it.

As i said in the earlier post it sure would be nice if somebody could maybe put together say two conventions and thats it. It would save vendors a lot of money with two shows one west coast one east coast. But make each convention for everybody within the haunt and not just the owners. I stepped up because i was attending the shows TW to be exact. I was meeting people, learning about running a bussiness and even became a very valuable person to a lot of people within haunting because of what i was learning on the show floor,by watching the make up artists and learning their products, and meeting other owners and crews and talking with them.

It all breaks down to me like this when i sit back and think about it.

Randy Daniels found me at a local music festival, he invited me as a carpenter to Screamfest. I became an actor and then fell in love with the make up,building and then actor managment when i had to fill in for a kid one night... I found out i was a freak!

I attended TW with randy and a few others but year two we took everybody that had stepped up the year after. This was a blast! We meet so many people and leanred so much from them.

So why not just have two shows and offer stuff for owners, actors, make up artists and everybody of big value on the crew as we all help build and run our haunts. the owners may pay for everything but it's the crew that makes the haunt succsessful.

Larry if you ever decide to put a team together to help pull this off i would gladly take the responsibilty of arranging everything not owner related, you handle the booths and i would gladly call on the hundreds of freinds iv'e made over the years to put together the seminars for the crews to learn from.

I would definetly come out of retirment for that because i think it's a great cause and one that personally i think should be a big part of the convention. Make up seminars by somebody different every hour on the hour, distressing and costuming clinics, and acting seminars after acting seminars all weekend long. Do a group rate for the crews so they can afford it, make it cheap, get them on the show floor learning the materials, but most importantly getting haunt crews knowing each other because were all in the love of it together.

That i would think would change haunting more then any prop every invented!! And it all works in the favor of the owners!

Mistress DeSade
03-13-2009, 12:28 PM
Larry-I too would have to respectfully disagree that haunters/retailers have nothing in common. As several individuals pointed out, people start buying "scary" stuff somewhere-and it's generally from a retail store. This is (or should be) partly where our "new blood" comes from. And yes-as those retailers start halloween displays after school starts, our efforts to promote haunts begins to pay off.
In this economy -or really even in a booming economy-the smartest moves we can make is to find every single opportunity to leverage our investments in time/money/manpower.

Now-are we ever going to have the buying clout that wal-marts and others have with these big retailers? Doubtful...but there are many ways our position with them could be enhanced that aren't even being utilized. What do these retailers and haunt/attraction owners have in common? Easy-they have to make a profit. Do we all need to be under one roof? Perhaps not-but I believe our side IS losing something of value with the split-and I don't just mean buying at show prices (tho-jeez, have you ever had to run into a retail shop and buy ANYTHING cause a costume got trashed-or whatever? Yikes!).

I've been a home haunter...a pro haunter and a co-producer for a haunt convention-and IMHO, we will continue to see a morphing of the tradeshows because no one (yet) has unlocked the combination of profitability for the vendors and "value" for the attendees. And EVERY tradeshow thus far seems totally oblivious to the 800 pound gorilla in the corner which could not only boost the awareness of the haunt (and related) industries as a whole, but could also boost the profitability of both the vendors and the producers of the show.
I think ONE show a year would be fantastic for many reasons-but unfortunately I doubt that will happen as long as ego's dominate the way they have in the past-but it could be one heck of a media event! Most haunters attending these shows want 3 things. They want to learn, They want to socialize/network and they want to be able to buy at either less than retail, or something unique from retail. Vendors want to write orders and have exposure to new customers (and yes, socialize too-but it becomes hard to justify "networking" costs if you're not writing orders)

I feel we should be looking for ways to expand our circle (and thus potential profits) and not contract. As much as we LOVE what we do, the obvious has been stated before. If we don't make money at it, we're not going to get to play much. As a whole we are an INCREDIBLY creative group-but yet we don't apply that creativity in the business realm of our industry. Perhaps that's because artists are often poor business people. Perhaps it's because of the ego issue. I don't know. But I do know there's more than one way to skin a cat-

I'm looking forward to St. Louis. I plan on learning something, buying something(s) and socializing


Kathryn DeSautell

xxxdirk
03-13-2009, 12:42 PM
Perhaps what TW should do is have a way to id those of us that have a sellers permit and a retail store. It is really not fair for someone from a home haunt or a haunt that has no store to be able to buy items at the same price I do. I have rent that I have to pay each month for my retail store etc. Any way, that way TW can have both groups at the convention, and if someone walks up and they dont have the wholesale buyer id, the booth can blow them off....

Mistress DeSade
03-13-2009, 01:26 PM
That's closer to a more cost effective solution (buyer id, number, whatever)...but consider this:
Excluding the general public (which TW more or less keeps out anyway) a sale is a sale in the vendor's world. If a pro haunt owner goes to say Rubie's and orders 10,000 worth of costumes and a retail shop owner comes in and orders 10,000 worth of costumes, who's the "better" customer?

Most vendor's already impose a minimum order that precludes home haunters, etc from buying. Now if you were going to allow the general public in it wouldn't be that difficult to impose a "buyers premium" (i.e. retail markup) on those without id. And it doesn't really sabotage the retailers of those products because the buying "window" is so short. It COULD get people thinking/planning a lot sooner.



Kathryn DeSautell

xxxdirk
03-13-2009, 02:18 PM
To play devils advocate Kathyrn, yest it does make a difference. I would much more prefer to see the people at the convention come and support MY store. LOL Seriously though, yeah, if the vendors sell at retail price, to the people at the convention that do not have a retail sales permit, that would be fine. However, don't expect me to feel any sympathy to those with no sellers permit, or retail store that complain when they want to buy stuff at wholesale prices.

princeofdarkness
03-13-2009, 09:34 PM
First say letting me thanks for letting join the board. I have visited Hauntworld board many times but this is the first time I've posted something here. I have been in the film business and Fx business for over 25 years as an agent.
I have done haunted house consulting, collector consulting and buying, selling, promoting and marketing for over 20 years. Theres not to many people I dont know in this business. Either in film, fx, haunted houses, amusement parks, artist or private collectors. So I've delt with them all. As far as vendors most all of the big names, I know very very well. I hooked Lafond (Louis) into the playboy halloween party. Ive hooked collectors to Scarefactory and Unit 70 with Bo. I have know Distortions (Ed & Marsha) for years. And not to leave out the Morris people, Phil, Scott and Jim. And Don Post, who started the whole thing.
Point being, polls, and opinions are good feedback for Transworld, if they will listen, and you can have an open mind. I've been to Transworld the very first year it started, and since it was in my back yard of Chicago it was only a skip and jump. I know the Transworld people well, and I have voiced my opinion several times, and warned them of what they were facing if a change wasn't made.
CHANGE seems to be the key word in 2009, for everyone. Not only in the Halloween/Haunting business, but in the country & world.

Transworld is a Trade show. Not for people who just want a fast amusement by looking at all the cool stuff. But business and to make money and its everyone not just a group. Like a Haunter or Costume people. EVERYONE! But to solve Transworlds problems, and if your going to "VOTE" or voice an opinion, you have to know the facts. You also have to be reasonable. Dont get mad, but I look at the poll and laugh. Why because 1/2 if not most of those choices will not work.
Being in Law, we are tought to only explore facts, not opinions, or hear-say. Transworld was once a great show, over years and years it has slimmed, booths have gotten smaller, due to high prices and cost has went up. Not to mention the cost that a vendor has to dish out. One must remember this is a "TRADE" show. 98% of all vendors will base thier season on this show. If they dont sell, then they have lost thier season.
So it is much more than "pipe dreamerstuff. I'm not saying anyone here, or any one person, but in reallity there are alot of them. Again I stress this is a "TRADE" show. It was never ment to be anything else. So if your comparing it to a "CHILLER", "FEARFEST", "HAUNT CON" really its not. Not even close. Its based on companies selling thier product to stores (wholesale) for retail sale. Not to the public. There are no stars that do these shows. Thats not what its about. Yes a few have popped up both as buyers, lookers, and some even had a table to sign a few pictures.
I remember when Universal had a booth, and Ron Chaney signed Pictures. Bela Jr. Had a booth and signed pictures. There where mini haunted houses you could walk through, and Morris and Distortions took up a "football" field of space with flying UFO's, and giant spiders hanging from the rafters. Animatronics filled the floor and the Scarefactory was just beginning to break ground. I have seen alot of companies drop out. Some because they made no monay at the show. Table prices have increased over the years. Or they just couldn't compete with people shipping thier stuff overseas, to save money. Then again you get what you pay for. I for one am NOT a supporter of overseas crap.
Problem with Transworld is thier fighting a 3 Headed Dragon. Not to mention a few other kinks caused by some vendors. (Costume Vendors).
When you think of were Transworld should be, you have to think about several things. Larry said it best "cost". But theres more to it.
Maybe this will help people know whats all involved, then come up with a plan.

1. Cost (Cost consist of not only the vendor as far as table price, travel, and expense. Not to mention bring product to the show. But also the buyers. Travel, Hotel, Food.) This can be solved if you DO YOUR HOMEWORK to SOME DEGREE But not all

2. Transworld cant be split or it wont work. Not money wise for everyone, and it will never pass sorry. The Costume show already is headed back to Chicago in 2010, and if not for the lease in St.L the Haunt show would have followed, so it be 2011 if they join again. Thats up to the VOICE of the People, Vendors alike. Not just one person or who ever but everyone, and it be a majority that will make that decision. Welcome to America. Thats the way it should be. You live with it, no matter what and support it. If you dont like it, dont go, simple, freedom of choice, but in the long run it will only hurt you, and make you look like you just a brat who couldn't have thier way. You gota support the majority, we do it in life everyday, sometimes we dont like it, but we live with it. Sometimes you got work with someone you dont like. But again its America and YOUR CHOICE! Joe and Ron already are on top of things and will be watching St.L very carefully. It be a good show, but it wont have the numbers. There is way too much money lost splitting the shows. When you think of Venue, you have to pick a spot that will hold both shows. Let break down everyones ideas. Sure everyone wants it to be in thier own backyard, but you have to look at the whole picture. You have to be reasonable.

WEST COAST

LA/SD/SEATTLE are way to far for anyone to travel. Yes I know California people are Booing me. But, The vendors would spend a kings ransome getting thier stuff there. Esp the "BIG" vendors with large props, animatronics ect. All of those cities are very expensive and no major vendor is going to spend BIG bucks on bringing all of thier stuff out thier. Sure its great for film people, West coast dwellers, and the weather is great. But COST over sees all of that. Sorry No LA No West Coast.
LV Las Vegas might as well be LA thier only 4 hours from each other. Las Vegas doesn't work other than hey its "Vegas Baby". Thats why it doesn't work. For one its too spread out. Two, Vegas is an Adult playground. Its fun but not if your life depends on sales at a Halloween Convention or Trade show. To many distractions.
"All work and no play make jack a dull boy". Not to mention, its still far, and expensive. And Jan/Feb can not be booked in Vegas. I'll get to time slots later. Other than weather and its fun town, it has nothing in its favor. Last year was not a great year for vendors in Vegas, compared to Chicago and did no one any favors except for West Coast vendors. Sales did not pop, like they were hopeing for. Again too many distractions. Transworld probably will enver go back to Vegas, if they do, good luck. Dont put any money on it.

MOUNTAIN SIDE
Pheniox - Still to far away. The problem here is the Venue cant hold both shows...The weather good but doesn't do TW any justice.
Denver - Denver would never work, although Lafond, and Distortions would jump for joy.
Yeah it be cool thing, problem with Denver is not only distance, but Weather.

Texas - Now where at a spot that might make sence. Although I wouldn't promote Houston. I know HC was there once. Problem with Texas is it has to have a big enough Venue to hold both shows. Weather is good. Its Venue that might be an issue, along with whats there to do in Texas.

MIDWEST-

Indy is a good place but the convention center can hold both showes at once. There building another one, but as of now, you couldn't do a Transworld there. Weather also plays a factor.
Chicago - Well thats where it ll started, and might be where it all ends.
St.L - Larry on St.L, the issue is can it hold both shows, and the weather.
You can argue March, but then why not Chicago? I know its your back yard. You can argue we only need one show, well then I see why you support St.L. I dont because of the Venue size, Time Slot. I do think as a whole picture and everyone involved. Plus I support both shows togther, with even an add on. Plus I hate the Cardinals LOL JK ~L~

Kentucky and Ohio wont beable to do both shows at once, you must have a veune that can hold them both. They wont split again.

EAST COAST -

You can forget Boston its way to far, if you go to Boston might as well go to LA enjoy the weather.

NY is possible, but again your fighting weather. At least its in Rubies back yard.

Char NC - I'm sure Morris would vote for this one, but again its on the EAST coast its far shot for west coast people, even Midwest People.

SOUTH -

***Atlanta is possible, its closer than Orlando, the venue could hold both shows.
There plenty to do and of course thats Netherworlds back yard. Let alone good weather.

***Orlando is a good choice but cost of getting thier might be a factor. Inless you use priceline. Ticket there now is $35...LOL Is a good haul to Orlando, but not like LA or LV. The Venue could hold 10 Transworlds, and theres Universal and Disney.
The weather perfect in any month, and theres lots to do. Its also home to IAAPA show. Maybe Transworld could take a lesson or two from.

Thats Dragon Head number two.



CONT...

princeofdarkness
03-13-2009, 09:39 PM
Third Dragon is the vendors themselves. The vendors want Jan or Feb. Saying March is too late to get orders ready and out the door by Halloween. They need more time, meaning 30 to 60 days earlier (Jan/Feb)
The only two cities that would work for that time slot is Atlanta or Orlando. If you do March and Chicago or St.L then its too late for vendors. Inles Haunt vendors feel March is ok. Then your problem is solved. But there are alot of Haunt vendors saying thats too late also. You guys are preaching March but Vendors are preaching Feb, thats your own people talking, not only the costume people. Dont the Vendors have say so in when they would like to come and travel? JUST THINKING OF THEM and NOT Myself...Sorry
So its coming from your own people too. Ive talked to them all.
So once you know what cities can hold both Venues and taken out Cost. You can narrow it down.
Chicago, St.Louis(if they can hold both), Atlanta, Orlando

Next is time slots. This is the biggest problem of all. Jan/Feb in any city besides Atlanta or Orlando is dreadfull. One storm could wipe out a trip to TW. Do you trust weather in Chicago, St.L in Jan/Feb? March ok but then your looking at Product out the door for the season. Some big vendors need 3 months to do those big props and animatronics. ASK SF, Dist and Unit 70 what time frame is. Listen to yourself. Or do you want it rushed for fast buck. Any city could handle a show in March, but even March can get cold in the Middle that time of year.
Thats a big risk. That leaves -West but thats not the issue
So thats what your faceing. Thats where everyone is at a stalemate. How do you solve it. Go back to Chicago in Early March. Go to Orlando or Atlanta in Jan/Feb.


If you wanta add more problems. Its the costume people fighting the haunt people. Which is why its split this year, not to mention Vegas couldn't hold both venues at that time.
Haunted houses are a business just like a store. With a different venue. So why not sell wholesale to them. This where the fight began. I wont name costume vendors, but I'm sure you know who they are. Everyone needs to just get along. Its about the buyer, and "WE" put money in the vendors pocket. So stop fighting, and being stupid
and think of the customer, not oneself.


While I agree, TW should not let anybody into the show, it should deal with its customers, and keep order in all directions.
TW will rebound, but it needs leaders that will listen to everyone, and problem solve. Not be bullied by a few vendors or costume people.
By now, TW should have learned its really the Haunt people who make the show.

Think of planing like they do the "Superbowl". Or Nascar. They start in Feb where? Orlando. Then they work there way using the weather as guide to each city. Same with the Superbowl. Its in Feb so they must think warm city. But the Superbowl, is moved around every year. Moving it around wont work with many people, and vendors alike. Its a known fact, people dont like thinking about things. They dont like change, at least not this kind of change.
Theres enough stress when the show comes around and preparing for it, on both ends, but vendors have more of the burden, and alot riding on the show. To add trying to figure out when and where each year would not go over well with vendors or buyers. Not me anyway.
When they plan that, they also think, can the city hold a Superbowl? Well TW no Superbowl, but you have to think on that kind of level when your talking in Time, weather, people, cost ect. Its not rocket science, just planning, communication, and the right people running it.
The other factor is, buyers. This is not an amusement show. Yes we all love to see those big dragons and wild animatronics. But these people are not there to amuse. They are there to make money and for business. So I tend to side with vendors on people just pipe dreaming, or coming to be amused. TW has let a few slip in the door that have no business being there.
Also TW is still the bar. Yes you can try to do shows, but lets face it, marketing cost big bucks. Something TW does have. They also bring in the giants, like SF, DIST, Unit 70, Morris, and few others. Its hard to jump from the NFL and play in CFL or play in the NBA then go over seas and play. Thats what vendors look at. And can a small show bring in buyers that spend that kind of cash.
Its easier said then done people. Every show has its own thing, but dont mix apples and oranges but remember still all fruit. As far as putting one show against the other, as Larry said its retarded. Support! Splitting up is not the answer. Doing another show is not the answer. Houston is not the answer. Going on ones own is not the answer, and you will have a hard time convincing BIG vendors that. There use to old school, if you get my drift. And if you fail or a new show doesn't produce for them your crediblity is shot for life.
Meaning "IF" I say "IF" you get the Big boys to your own haunt show, or whatever show, and they have bad sales or a bad experience, you will never get them back. Lets be honest here, people dont like new things. People tend to be scared of change or something else. I think its better to put that show back togther, add more things, get new people in there that can run it, hear the people, the haunters, the vendors and solve this, no matter where its at. Lets get on with it. People are fast to judge, but you have to know all facts.

ITS ALL ABOUT $$$ and BUSINESS. Thats what I look at MONEY! I do it for a living and I look at the bigger picture. In BUSINESS you look with your wallet not your heart. Thats what the city looks at, and the convention. Further, alot of small vendors depend on the costume part. People like Prop Masters ect. They have small one or two booths. Great product, and perfect for a home haunt or haunted house.
But they dont need, nor want the distraction of some BIG vendor with BIG Animatronics.

CONT

princeofdarkness
03-13-2009, 09:47 PM
Even in the same venue. It distracts, takes away. There trying to make money. This is a proven fact, remember FACTS! They have tried being up-stairs and made double the amount of sales down stairs the following year. Vocal point. If we had a Chevy we were selling next to a Ferrari, we couldn't sell it. People wanta see the Ferrari,
touch it, stand by it, sit in it, take pictures with it, even if they cant afford it. While your Chevy sits there, and people say "Yeah" "Nice". "Oh look at that Red Ferrari. Where as in an AUTO MALL you could sell that Chevy. Two different locations. Anyway you get the idea, same principal anyway.
The show needs to come togther again. It wont happen in 2010, but I bet my last dollar it will in the following years.

#2) I agree, we dont need a Rubies, California costume, or Cinn Secrets, but we do need costume people and costume vendors. Really we need them all and need everyone to work as a team without one voice of a Vendor.
Did they shoot themselves in the "ASS" when they went to Houston. Yep they did. But that fight is worse than ours. Because you have two SETS of costume people going to two showes. The Rubies followers, and the rest. In the long run, they will suffer the most. We dont have two Haunt shows divided.

#3) "WE ARE HALLOWEEN!!! What I'm saying is that there needs to be a seperation of RETAIL and HAUNTS"...
Thats false statement! WE are not. Yes there are lots of Haunted Houses, some that work, some that fail, and some who only care about making a fast buck for 31 days.
BUT WE ARE NOT HALLOWEEN! The KIDS make Halloween! I'll bet you a million dollars right now more money goes into candy, and costumes, than Haunted Houses. So to think that is stupid! I agree retail is one thing, haunts are another, so are the mask collectors and the private
prop and animatronic & mask collectors. OH yeah they are there. I know. Some spend more money on the Animatronics to collect for personal than any haunted house could ever budget, so dont think there not important. They also support people like Morris, Don Post, Prop Master and I can name alot lot more...You can seperate them, but not into two shows.

#4) If anything, the show should work to improve itself. Maybe add a third section, geared like a Chiller, or Haunt Fest/Scream Fest, with stars, film stuff ect ect. To add to the pot. This draws in the hobbiest also, and again adds more money and people. You have think BIGGER, NOT SMALLER. Even wo costume people, there needs to be something added, to help the small vendors.
Maybe even have one company do a "HAUNTED HOUSE" at the show. God knows you could do one up in a convention hall. Maybe every year bring in a Haunted house or two. If you really want to think big, do a Haunt wars, where you have 5 Haunted Houses there completeing from prize or something, in those lines.
"NOT BAD"!

#5) "So what does the weather have to do with it one damn thing."
It has alot to do with it. Most people have voiced that opinion no matter what you might think. But again you have to look at the whole picture not just what you want to do, or want. People Hate COLD! Alot of people walk to places, alot of people smoke, alot of people are driving and dont want to risk it.
BUT, more important is the vendors who drive thier stuff. Jan/FEB is dreadfull!
Which is why the costume show is NOT in Chicago, or wasn't. Had it been not an issue it would have been in Jan in Chicago.
The most important thing is risk. $$$. This where you need a hafe brain. You cant risk Jan/Feb in Chicago, Indy or St.L Bah Bah if the roads where clear, this happened that happened. It only take a good storm to wipe out someones season! Had it been in Boston 2 weeks ago, the season was done!
Vendors dont want that risk. Small turn out, cancelled flights, bad weather, whatever. YOU DONT PAY THERE BILLS, THEY DO! So there 100% correct in saying inless its in a warm city, NO JAN/FEB!

#6) March again is very very touchy for vendors to complete thier orders. SF stops Orders in JUNE! Thats gives you 2 months. Get it!

#7) Maybe its a control issue. Who wants to run the show and be the big cheese. Could be. Even here!
One of these two shows Houston/Transworld is going under for sure... after this mess with both shows having little to no attendance one is going down. If Transworld show survives great, if not doesn't matter. It matters

"We have our own show one where the vendors can save money on booth costs, hotels, food and travel." Thats false statement, reminds me of some politician trying to make another party, look bad. SORRY! Im a business man and not buying that!
While I might agree on the booth cost, there no difference is travel cost. If people where smart, heres a tip. They just use price line for all travel. I always use them. I booked my car for $12 a day on PL. My Hotel for $35, not some cheesey one.
My Fight to LA for $120 to the show in Burbank in May. The St.L show Im driving from Indy because Im attending another show before the Haunt show. Cost me $80 on PL from Canada to Indy. So to say its cheaper travel ect ect thats Hog wash. Why pay high price for your convention Hotel. I see it for Chillers, Haunt Cons, Fear Fest, Even TW. Last year in Vegas $89 TW special. I stayed at Hooters for $21. My convertable was $14 a day. Its all a bunch BS. Do your homework! Before you do a convention special. Food, well it depends on the city.

"Haunted house owners also want better deals, more products developed, then you need your vendors to realize some saving as well." Remember the vendors are at risk the most not BUYERS! Thats just a bad plea, for vendor support. You think another show will improve that. No Way. If anything it will drive up the price for vendor because the traffic isn't there. Again there are more than just Haunted House people in this world that buy both! Sorry Just Fact!

"Lets not be selfish because we want to look at some Halloween stuff." Dont think so, its not about Halloween stuff, it all goes into one pot. If you read my other part of the post that would be understood. Nothing personal. Again there are alot and I can pop numbers if you like me to go there, that do buy both. Or cant afford something BIG from Big Vendors. There are the small prop makers, and mask people who do stuff for yard haunt people, and low budget haunted houses. Are they to suffer also? Think about that!
Whats next kick them out because they dont make Giant animatronics and high budget stuff. Sound like some congress guy who likens to the rich and hell with the small no name haunters. But the no name haunters depend on small vendor and depend on costume people. Maybe not Rubies or whoever but the other small vendors who are in the costume section!

"Do we really want to be in the middle of this turmoil or just wrap your fingers around your own show? Think about it!" No we dont want the turmoil, but we cant depend on risk and change either just because one person or a few think one dementional. You got think of everyone involved! No "I" in Team. To ad, show here, show there, show everywhere. ITS BULLSHIT! I can get a list of 2000 people that will agree in this business, that two many shows hurts the business. NO ONE wants to travel 6 times a damn year. No one wants to go to this show, that show, this show all because of Selfish idiots that cant come to an agreement, or thier pride to big, or they want to control it. ITS BS! People already get confused on all damn shows there are, now this. WHY! STUPID! If anything combine a few more, work togther and as a team. Lower prices for Haunt vendors, keep retail retail and Haunt stuff haunt stuff add this add that. But splitting it up.NO WAY! House divided WILL FALL! And another show will not solve it, trust me. Yes I agree Houston/TW is another thing thats thier thing so what we lose Rubies do you care..NO Haunt Vendors make up twice what Rubies will BUT
Not every costume, small vendor in that venue has to suffer. So split NO
I'm not buying it counselor.

Awards is a great thing! I suggested Mini Haunted House Wars...Theres alot of improvement if people would take a step back. Stop trying to judge, and control, listen to everyone.
Nothing Personal, but Im sure if the Darkness was in Chicago you be on that. So dont say St.L is the answer.
Doesn't matter where its at, as long as it can hold venue, time slot is RIGHT for EVERYONE, and people enjoy themselves and businesses make money. THATS WHAT ITS ABOUT!

Transworld has a long long way to go, before it solves its problems. But its a team effort, and it takes everyone. Its like a strike, it not only hurts the company, it hurts the employees and most of all the public.
To recap it all, you must remember the FACTS. You have to have a venue that WILL FIT both shows of that size. Like it or not both must be included to do well on the business side of it all. Small vendors need the costume part of the show. For 1 there way to small to sit next to a vendor displaying 12 foot dragons or giant UFO's. In the business sense, which is what I look at, you would be washed out by those vendors. Distractions and people who be more intrested in watching the Dragon fly, where, maybe small Haunted house or retail store might buy your product on the costume floor. This true, believe it or not. Many small vendors rather be out of the hipe. Lets face it, you wouldn't sell a Chevy next to a Ferrari dealer. And most small vendors selling mask, or props or small animatronics have a better shot at business on the costume floor then up-stairs.
Next you have to concider time slot. Jan/Feb must be in a warm city.
Last March is too late for vendors to prepare for orders and the season.
So theres your 3 headed dragon, and its not as easy as people think to solve. You wont please Everyone. Its like a trick question. Get my drift.


CONT

princeofdarkness
03-13-2009, 09:53 PM
But bottom line is everyone must work togther,
get a letter going, send it Tranworld work togther,
it takes everyone, and MOST OF ALL, IT TAKES OPEN MIND!
Look at it from everyones view. Not just yours. If anything Transworld needs to get bigger. I really think to pull it all around it will need to do what i suggested. Maybe another section added, like a Haunt Con or Chiller or Fear Fest, with small tables, vendors mask artist ect.
But a time & place must be sorted out first. Everything must be put under the bridge. AND PRIDE must be swallowed! Its not that hard!

Shoot me Kill Me, but its all fact guys.
I miss the old TW, and I wish them luck. I have spent hours and hours on the phone putting my 5 cents in, and yearly meeting at the show. Theres an old saying, you cant help someone if thier not willing to help themself.
TW will return to Chicago and it will be one again, it has to be. Or at least one up-stairs one down to keep the peace. But for now and 2010 enjoy St.L and have fun! Thats what its all about. So instead of judging and threatning to not come, or being like a child who cant have thier cookie before dinner, step back and think it over. Because TW will go on wo you. The only one to suffer is you. Solve the problem dont be a part of it.
And hey, just think. At one time long ago it all use to be one floor and one happy family. Believe it or not.
If I repeated of some of what Larry said, I'm sorry. If I offened you I also am sorry. But this is fact, and no one will get no place if theres no team effort. Vendors, Buyers and Show people alike. Hopefully now you understand. See the point.
As for the Haunt show in St.Louis. I will be there of course. I'm 100% positive it will take stand to the Vegas show. The LV/Houston split killed them! Lets show TW how "WE" have fun. Maybe the costume people will follow suite, and one day "WE" will all be one happy family again.

To be honest here, if people dont get thier act together, there wont be any shows, because the people, the buyer, and the vendors will say. "YOU KNOW WHAT? HELL WITH IT, HERES OUR WEB SITE, ORDER OFF OF THERE! SAVES EVERYONE, TIME, MONEY and HEADACHE! NOT WORTH IT!" THEN WHAT! WELCOME WORLD WIDE WEB! GOOD BYE GOOD TIMES! GOOD BYE GET TOGETHERS! GOOD BYE HAUNTED HOUSES IN MARCH, FEB or WHATEVER! WHO SUFFERS? ITS NOT LIKE OLD DAYS. NOW YOU HAVE THE WEB, THAT MIGHT BE THE ONLY ANSWER! YOU THINK ABOUT THAT.

I REST MY CASE!

Mike/PoD

robert
03-14-2009, 12:22 AM
I don't go to the show to have "fun". I go to get business done so I can enjoy scaring the hell out of people in October.

princeofdarkness
03-14-2009, 01:16 AM
I have read these post over and over.

With all do respect Larry. Please dont take this wrong. Your starting to sound like
Rubies on the Haunt Side. Maybe its control, or power thing I dont know. I dont understand, your a business man. But its your decision, and choice. I would think you would support TW for better or worse. They sure have done alot for you over the years. Whens the last time you guys did something way out. People like SF and Unit 70, Distortions, Morris and Lafond all good friends of mine fork over $1000's to display at the show. I remember when HW has thier animatronics & props all over the place. Over the last 5+ years Ive seen nothing but Mag & Videos. Fine exsample. I hope St. Louis is different since its only a few yards away and in your backyard. Ive never missed a TW. I can name every year every vendor from Day 1
(Well TW together. I did not attend Vegas this year.)

Quote "Yeah when they said Houston was a bust
Houston was dead, Vegas is dead... those two shows killed each other."

Yeah they did over STUPIDNESS! Blame Rubies. That much is true. But maybe they will learn. If they do, then maybe we should support that. IF they dont, well hell with them. But dont put all costume people in there.

Quote "One a different note do you guys think Chicago is going to solve any problems for TW? You guys are FREAKIN NUTS if you think so wake up!"

Do you think St.L is going to solve it? Why because its in your back yard. It will bring money to your place. Thats what its coming off as. Hell I support Orlando or Atlanta myself. I live in Chicago. And Canada.

Quote "The problem isn't the city its Rubies and all the other vendors that dumped Transworld and started their own show. No point in being part of a dying show."

True I agree there, but no point in letting the little costume vendors or prop/mask people suffer either. If Rubies and California Costume and Cinn Secrets wants to do Houston let them. My point is open your arms to the other vendors, they need us, we in a sence need them. Think of the extra bodies, and money as a whole.

If you think you dont your wrong. Remember this, thier are alot of voices. Alot of vendors, and alot of money TW pumps out. You dont have that money. No one will ever pay for a show. Not when its thier money going into the pockets of the sellers. I wont. No one will with hafe a brain. IM doing you a favor not the other way around. Its not what I can do for you, its what you can do for me. Tell me why I should buy your product, or thier product or whatever. You think Im going to pay for that. Meaning pay to get in a show. NO WAY MAN! I dont need your business (Meaning vendor, not you) you (vendor need mine.) SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT!

The next thing is, again the BIG Vendors. WO them you dead in the water!
Next whos going to take control of it. Too many Chiefs not enough Indians.
Business is Business and I know all the tricks of the trade. Everyone going to try to profit from one thing that have these great ideas. Its people who suffer.

Quote "Rubies is going to do what they did this past year and start calling all the big retailers and tell them 'look there can only be one show, so lets just all get behind Houston'. Retailer vendors will have to take a long hard look at that because they don't want to exhibit at TWO SHOWS!" Your right, they wont, but they will also look at whos leading them into war. There not going to let a leader get them killed. If they are their stupid. But already they should have learned. Believe me, people aren't stupid. "Fool me once shame on you" "Fool me twice shame me". This might take two years, Im sure it will. Houston already set. St.L is set for 2010.
So you let the storm pass, then rebuild! If I were TW Id cancel Chicago 2010 and try to push them to St.L. That be hafe the battle. Let Rubies do whatever. They be back. Its thier dime...

Quote "Then what happens is they tell Transworld thanks but no thanks and then what do you have ... NOTHING a show that is even WORSE!" No, you have a show without Rubie and the other clowns but still vendors and costume people. Life goes on.

Quote "Here is the other possibilty... Transworld goes to Rubies and works all this mess out with them and Rubies comes back and then you are back to one big show." Well whos pride is stronger?


Quote "And we can ALL be thankfull that the haunt industry isn't caught in the middle and has their OWN show in a DIFFERENT CITY!" - So shut the door on the other vendors make them go to Houston...Even the guys who sell to yard haunts, and small haunted houses that want to be apart of the haunters but are small vendors or small mask makers and ect ect... The Giggets. (Nice I wanta party with you dude.) (Even Moses let Roman soldiers join him in his house when the Angle of Death Passed By.)

So your answer is one Hauntshow in St. Louis. Thats big answer. It never fly. Trust me. I know. Sorry. Really what your setting yourself up for is the mirror image of the costume people. Right now you have a 3 way split. Most if not all big vendors will support and have already the show going as 1. Do you want to end up like Rubies people and have a split Haunt show with certain vendors here certain vendors there. Think about that. Thats where your headed. If so, you might as well just order off the web.

You tell me a plan that will work, convince me I'll support anything that reasonable. But not for one self being, and I see it going there. I know alot people, and have alot of pull, trust me, wether TW dies or not, I will support them, and do everything in my power and beyond to convince the haunt vendors that. If I have to fly from city to city. I just think within reason this can be solved. But like a strike, both sides have to give in alittle. Yes its our problem. While you think retail is not our problem, well, its not but, it still effects the over all image. TW
has done alot for the all walks of life. If you wanta say I'll never go back to Chicago bah bah bah, it only makes you look bad, and you know what, life goes on. I wont miss those videos or Mags much. Sorry and with all do respect. It doesn't sound good when you toss those words. But your grown man and can do what you and your company wish. But the doors open even for Rubies, HW and whoever wants to come on in...

Mike/PoD

Barry
03-14-2009, 05:14 AM
Mike,

Wow! That was a lot reading! LOL Let me thank you for being the first to agree with me on one major point (in your first post I think) and that is the fact that TW is a business and they will do what is best for them and them alone.

The other thing that you and everybody else is missing is the fact that we now have all of these shows BECAUSE OF TRANSWORLD! Here is a quick synopsis:

Hauntcon started because LP saw a need to do a show that catered more to haunters. We all remember the days when haunters were the "red headed stepchildren" at TW.

MHC started the same year as HC. We never intended it to be a big show but we benefitted from some unusual decisions by TW:

2004 - TW enforces their admittance rules and post security in the aisles. 2005 - TW put haunters upstairs creating further uncertainty.
2007 - TW unexpectedly changes dates by almost a month after years on the same weekend.
2008 - TW moves to Vegas
2009 - TW splits up the shows

Houston was created by extreme dissatisfaction with TW by some very big $$ stakeholders. While everyone here seems to want to blame Rubies I would encourage you to dig a little deeper and and learn the rest of the truth. As some people like to say - "follow the money".

So, I guess what I am saying is that once again we, as an industry, are in the same place we have been every year for the past five. Everyone is saying "we all have to work together for the sake of the vendors and support the TW show". While, at the same time, we are all waiting for the other shoe to drop on what TW will do to us to create uncertainty. They are the one common thread throughout.


I will end this post as I started it - it is about business. Vendors will go to the shows where they can make money. Haunters will go to the shows where they can do the business they need to do and have a good time. The shows will continue to do what they think is best for them. Yes there is no I in team but at the end of the day we all do what we feel is best for ourselves.

Frighteners Entertainment
03-14-2009, 08:15 AM
Well said Barry.

Darkangel
03-14-2009, 12:20 PM
Mike,

I've read your posts over the years here and there, and you always go to Transworld but how much do you actually buy? You do own a haunt or not, or are you just an enthusiast who loves to talk the talk to vendors?

I want to see everyone together with the exception to Rubies, they suck.

Darkangel